00:00 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
I have a son, I am Ivan and I am a dad. The vet, who'd been hovering in a corner of the enclosure, turns toward me. I fall back on my rump. I stop breathing, please don't let me pass out again. Kenyani nods as if to say surprise, there in the vet's arms is a second baby gorilla, a girl, squirming and skinny and beautiful Twins. I am the father of twins.
00:37 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
You just heard Newbery Award-winning author Katherine Applegate reading from her brand new book, The One and Only Family. If I owe you all any work, I promise you'll get it tomorrow. My book just arrived today and I have been devoted to reading it. This book is everything. It is so heartwarming. It's the perfect finale to the One and Only Ivan series and I can't wait to talk more with Katherine Applegate today on the Adventures in Learning podcast. Wonder curiosity connection. Where will your adventures take you? I'm Dr Diane and thank you for joining me on today's episode of Adventures in Learning. Welcome to the Adventures in Learning podcast. We are back with the one and only Katherine Applegate. This is a big week because this week you have the opportunity to celebrate the one and only Ivan's further adventures with the one and only family, which is out on Tuesday. So I'm so delighted to welcome Katherine as part of her book tour. Thank you for joining us today.
01:48 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
Oh, thank you for having me and for having the dog sitting on my lap, who happens to be a bit of a snorter. So if you hear snorting, it's the dog, not me.
01:59 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
That's what they all say. So, Katherine, let's start with The One and Only Family. This is a big deal. This is sort of the culmination of four books that started with a gorilla in a shopping mall. What led to this fourth book?
02:16 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
You know, I didn't think there'd be a second book. I really thought, you know, I brought Ivan's story kind of full circle and it's been such a delight to revisit these characters. They become friends and you get to know them better and better and you watch them grow up. Little Ruby the elephant is now, you know, taking care of another baby elephant by the fourth book, and that's just. It's so delightful to see book and that's just, it's so delightful to see.
02:49
But to go back and spend time in Ivan's point of view was really delightful because he's aged himself and he is now facing the prospect of parenthood, parenthood in the form of twins. And it was a very bittersweet kind of right because I had to think a lot about you know the difficulties we all face when we're parenting how much truth to tell our kids. You know how much to let them grow up when they need to grow up. And so it was more complicated than I thought it'd be. I thought, oh, you know, fun and games, two rambunctious toddler gorillas. But it turned out to be more than that.
03:26 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
And what are some of the life lessons that Ivan ends up imparting, if you can tell without spoiling the book?
03:33 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
Well, one of the big ones for him is realizing the sad truth that his toddlers will probably never be free, never see the wild in the way he briefly experienced it. And as I was writing it I thought a lot about climate change and how we face problems like that with our kids and question how much to tell them and how hopeful to be, and Ivan has to work through a lot of that. He also has this very complicated past. He lived in a mall circus for 27 years. How much of that do you tell your kids and when do you tell them? So he parses it out.
04:16
He starts out with little bits about Africa and of course they're fascinated. Their mom, Kenyani, is a little more pragmatic, although she was captive-born, so she didn't have that wild experience and it was interesting. And then of course there's just, you know, being a dad, the complications of being a dad. Turns out Ivan is a very good dad. The kids are the glossary. We always have a visual glossary at the beginning and in this one there are all these assorted toddler antics like bother father, where you get one on each shoulder and then just drive him nuts, asking annoying questions.
05:00 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, and you just said two things that I think are really interesting. One is figuring out revisiting Ivan's past, because you started grounded in a true story, because you originally were based on the real Ivan, who we know ended up in the Atlanta Zoo and, as far as I'm aware, did not become a parent, and so you've been able to sort of take him on this journey into the what-ifs. What if this could have happened? What if this could have happened? What if this could have happened? And I'm wondering did that give you more freedom in telling the story, sort of deviating from what happened to what could have happened?
05:36 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
That's a good way to put it. Actually it is a series of what-ifs. And the twin angle was interesting because the real Ivan might well have been a twin and twins are not particularly common in Western lowland gorillas, but it happens he was found with another infant gorilla and we don't know. She appeared to be the same age, she could have been an orphan from another troop and unfortunately she passed away almost as soon as they got to Tacoma, washington, because this horrific trip they'd been on. But that little tidbit, that possibility of twins in Ivan's past, gave me an excellent what if? An excellent opening to possibilities. And yeah, there's again. It's bittersweet to think this might have been for Ivan. He, as far as I know, was never a father. Kenyani, is still alive, and the mom, the significant other, and she is at the Columbus Zoo now, as I understand it, and thriving. So I tried to take as many you know facts, as always, as I could and blend them with the fiction.
06:48 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, and I can't wait to read it. So let's talk a little bit about climate change too, because I think that's important and I've noticed that it sort of makes its way through a number of your books. I mean, I just recently read Odder, and you can sort of see the impact of what we're doing in terms of the otter in Odder. You can certainly see the impacts of what we do in books like Wishtree as well, and so I'm wondering how do we talk to kids about climate change? You know you've been grappling with that. What are some of the things that you're thinking?
07:24 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
You know, I think it is incumbent on well, I started to say all writers, certainly children's writers to provide hope, because it's, you know, we're giving these kids all kinds of problems to deal with, all created by the grownups in the world, and to show them strategies for resilience I think is really important. I did this book called Willowdeen that focused on a couple of imaginary species that were interdependent and in rapid decline and she kind of plays investigative scientist and figures out how and why that's happening. And that was interesting because there was this kid who was kind of ostracized and on the periphery of things and interested in creatures that weren't necessarily the cutest and cuddliest, and she just observes and she is tenacious and she speaks out and she makes a change in this little community. And I think that's the kind of message you want to give to kids. I always tell them when I talk about Ivan that it was kids in part who got really mad about the way he was being treated at the mall and encouraged their parents to boycott it and it took a long, long, long long time but he was eventually released. So I think it's very important to give them hope and to show these little it's, you know, incremental Odder, for example, is a good example, because Monterey Bay otters, the population in the early 1900s were down to 50. And this you know again and again and again going back, these marine scientists and trying to find ways to preserve the species and save the kelp forest. And they're up to a few thousand now and they are regularly raising orphaned baby otters and putting them back out into the wild. So change is possible. It's slow but it's possible.
09:26 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, and I think it takes that commitment to change and the recognition that we have to change in order to be able to bring these about Very good point, very good point.
09:35 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
I mean, that's half the battle right there, isn't it?
09:38 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
It is. You know, and I think I told you last time we saw each other, when I was in Australia, we went to this tiny island called Phillip Island, which is right off of Australia and near Melbourne, and in the 1980s there were maybe 5,000 little penguins left and the little penguins are super cute, they're about this big and they're blue and white and they had run out of space and time.
10:03
You know, the British had brought foxes in and foxes are not natural predators in Australia and so they had decimated the populations. There were also summer homes that were being built and so, you know, little penguins needed space to be able to burrow and to lay and it took this concerted effort led by the community, the government, the scientists and I'm assuming the kids were part of it as well and they bought up the properties that were on this one part of the island where the penguins were. They converted it back to wild space and over time and it's been time, you know they got rid of the foxes, like they eradicated the fox population on the island and they actually I want the person's job who monitors are there foxes coming onto the island over a bridge or something? But over time there's now 20,000. No, I take that back. There's 40,000 little penguins, oh isn't that amazing.
10:59
So we can do it, and I think it's those stories of hope that are so essential when we talk about something as difficult as climate change, absolutely, absolutely, and focusing you're right on these little moments that add up.
11:16 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
It's kind of amazing how resilient nature can be given half a chance, and to see that penguin population explode like that, I mean, that's just remarkable, and it's just, it's super cool.
11:29 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So do you have a passage from The One and Only Family that you are reading as you're going out and doing book tours, or something that you'd like to share?
11:37 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
Oh sure, I just happen to have a book here. I do love this cover very much. They did such a good job. This is Patricia Castelau. She lives, I believe, still in Portugal and we've never met after all these four books, and I just think she does such a remarkable job. This is right, as Ivan is dealing with his newfound fatherhood.
12:04
I see hay and fur and then, yes, there she is, kenyani on her side clutching something, licking it, sniffing it. It's a baby, it's an infant gorilla, it's a son, it's my son. I let out a noise. I don't know why, what it is or what it means, but it feels like it's coming from somewhere deep inside of me. Protect, it says Protect. Kanyani glances over for just a moment, as if it's painful to separate her gaze from the scrawny lump of life in her arms. Protect, I feel it like a surge of lightning, a river rushing. Protect. I am a silverback and that is my job. I have a son, I am Ivan and I am a dad. The vet who'd been hovering in a corner of the enclosure turns toward me. Enclosure turns toward me. I fall back on my rump. I stop breathing. Please don't let me pass out again. Kenyani nods as if to say surprise, there in the vet's arms is a second baby gorilla, a girl, squirming and skinny and beautiful Twins. I am the father of twins.
13:27 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Wow, and what a great segue in terms of getting people hooked and wanting to read more.
13:34 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
It was great fun to do research you have not lived till you've spent millions of hours on the internet looking at videos of baby gorillas. They're just hilarious.
13:46 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, that's a really good question. How did you do the research for this book?
13:50 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
You know, I was lucky enough although I never did meet the real Ivan, I have been lucky enough to become friends with his main caretaker and best friend, Jodi Kerrigan, who is a primatologist at Zoo Atlanta, and last time I was there she took me behind the scenes to see some of the babies and you sat in this little special space and they came right over to her and they were absolutely obnoxious. It was so funny. They were pounding and you know, look at me, look at me, look at me just like every two and three year old you've ever met, and so that was really glorious to be that close to them. And then, of course, there's all kinds of research online. You can find it's so much easier to do research now than it was, say, 20 years ago when I was writing Animorphs.
14:44 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
You were in Floyd County, Virginia, because there had been a one-school, one-book read of Wishtree and then something happened. Can you tell us a little bit about that event and what was going on?
14:59 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
Well, you know it was interesting. It was actually a one-district, so they'd had it for many years and all the elementary schools read the same book and then there were all kinds of activities associated with it. Schools read the same book and then there are all kinds of activities associated with it and, by the way, I've had so many books, especially Wishtree and Ivan, used in that kind of context and I think it's just the greatest idea, because I wasn't much of a reader when I was young and even if you don't like the books, it's such a great way to connect over reading and to you know, share ideas and opinions. And you know the crossing guard reads it and the lunch ladies read it and it's really beautiful. So they had done this for quite a while and they got about halfway through and they suddenly just pulled the book without explanation. They had a regular reading schedule and the families were reading at home and they were about halfway through the book and it turned out that someone who did not live in the county or even have a kid in the public school system was complaining about a short passage in the book that had to do with reproductive strategies of trees, which are, you know, very complicated. To quote someone, a botanist, in one of these articles that followed on trees are kinky. They have. You know, you can have a male and a female parts on the same tree.
16:19
So anyway, I got into that a bit, because the book is written from the point of view of a red oak tree and this was apparently offensive to this particular parent, got picked up by other parents within the school system and the school board just it turns out, at least from what I'm told had never encountered a challenge book before. I think very often for a lot of these school systems that's part of the problem there's no, you know go-to methodology when somebody says, eh, I'm not really comfortable with that book. So I offered to Zoom with a school board at their next meeting. I had a message prepared and they wouldn't allow me to. So a wonderful parent stepped in and read it and I made a little video for the kids that I put on online and it just sort of blossomed and what I took from this was that a handful of parents can make a huge difference when these things happen, because a parent reached out and said, hey, want to come, stay here, and another one got in touch with a local paper and another one talked to the school board and I ended up going there and a lot of this was due to the wonderful support of my publisher Macmillan, who was as incensed as I was.
17:40
And I went and we had events at the public library and again, librarians are the best humans in the world. This public library stepped up and said, hey, you can do it here. So we had one event. It sold out instantly. We added another one. It sold out instantly and spent the afternoon and evening just talking to these great kids and teachers and librarians about the book. So it was very heartening and I think it opened up a dialogue. There was one school board member there who came to talk to me and I got the feeling that you know the ball is rolling anyway.
18:20 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, that's good, and the irony of the whole thing is Wishtree is about welcoming people, and so the idea that you would launch a complaint against this book that is about being the welcomer to me just baffles my mind.
18:35 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
It was ironic, to say the least, and not lost on most people. And in fact the library had a wish tree out in its front lawn and I visited another local school that had used wish tree last year and was having its second celebration of Wishing Day. And you know, it just takes that tiny little bit of difficult humanity to make these problems happen. But it's amazing, if you fight back, that people really will listen.
19:07 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I think and this was in microcosm of course it's much harder when you've got a huge school system and a lot of loud voices, but I think it can be done Well, and that experience I think is heartening to librarians and to those who are facing challenges is to know that if you speak up, if you make your voice heard, then there is a way to combat sort of the noise that's out there, because it really is a very small percentage of people, Tiny Challenges.
19:38 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
Just tiny. One of the lovely things was the public library had invited all the school librarians to come and had them stand up and you know, there was just riotous applause and it was a reminder of how very, very important librarians are in all this process. First of all, they're the ones on the front lines and secondly, they're trained to curate books. That's why we have librarians to help us decide where they should go. And I said in my statement, and I really believe this if you're a parent who doesn't want your kid to read a book, that's absolutely you're right, but don't tell my kid what they can read.
20:17 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
And that's 100% true. You know I've thought about this because I spend my career advocating for books and the inclusion of multicultural books as we teach STEM and STEAM. But, as a parent, there were certain books that I chose not to let my little girl read, and it was largely because I couldn't stand having Eloise acted out in my house. My oldest child was such an empath that she became the characters and as the mother of a four-year-old, I decided that Eloise was my line. I love Eloise and I never told anybody else they couldn't read Eloise. I just couldn't have her in my house.
21:00 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
I totally hear you. I've heard people say that about Junie B Jones. I love Junie B Jones, I think it was hilarious, but I know that some parents were like no, that's just a bridge too far.
21:11 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, we had already spent a childhood where she was Biscuit the dog. Do you remember? Biscuit wants a cookie. Yes, oh, we went to Biscuit for two weeks on a pack and play mat because she was Biscuit the dog.
21:27 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
Oh, that's so funny. Yeah, we justified there. Oh, absolutely, and see, that is your right.
21:35 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
But I would never tell anybody else. Can't read Biscuit or Eloise.
21:39 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
That's so funny. Yeah, I keep thinking we're past this phase and the banning is losing momentum and it doesn't seem to be. What is happening is that people who had been kind of going this too shall pass are realizing they have to step up and make noise again and again and again. And it's frustrating because parents are exhausted and they're working two and three jobs and they have soccer practice to deal with, and the last thing you want to have to do is also fight book bans, let alone librarians who are, you know, overworked and underpaid. So, but I do think that's the way things are going and also litigation is making a difference. I think it's scaring people.
22:24 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Right, and so we know that. You know, pen America has made a huge difference, and so has the ACLU, in terms of doing that litigation and supporting librarians, and I think that's huge.
22:36 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
And the Virginia Library Association was really helpful and VASL, the Association of School Librarians in Virginia, and there's a new organization called Virginians in Defensive Libraries and they were all wonderful called Virginians and Defensive Libraries, and they were all wonderful.
22:56 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So if you're facing somebody who's challenging.
22:58 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
These are some of the really good organizations to be able to oh, absolutely. And, of course, the ALA, the American Library Association. They're all out there making noise, which is so important.
23:05 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Which means you're not alone, Just like we talked about with climate change and speaking up for the animals. You're not alone. No.
23:12 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
And that's really, really important to remember because it can be isolating. I know these parents I spoke to initially felt really alone. They assumed they were the only ones who were concerned and it turned out, no, quite the contrary. But you know it takes a while to make all those connections. So cool.
23:35 - John Schu (Host)
Welcome to the Rock Concert.
23:43 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
That is the thing, the remarkable thing about stories when you find the right story and this, by the way, is a cover of one of our beloved Mr Schu's books, and it's absolutely amazing because it talks about how powerful stories are. Stories are how we understand the world. Stories are how we learn to be better human beings, and you are going to find the perfect book. Maybe it's not. This is a story. Maybe it's not the one and only family. Maybe it's not Charlotte's Web. Maybe it's not the one and only family. Maybe it's not Charlotte's Web. Maybe it's a graphic novel. Maybe it's nonfiction or poetry. There's a book out there that is going to change your life. So hang in there, because I bet a whole lot of you are gonna end up being readers.
24:26 - John Schu (Host)
And that closure was a note that said Dear Mr Schu, I hope you love the book of my heart. And I took that book and I took that note, and I went over to that chair and I read, and I read, and I read and this is what happened.
24:44
I told you, my favorite word is capacious, and I could feel my heart becoming more capacious and I could feel my soul billowing out. And then, olivia, I started to panic and I was like, no, I need more words, olivia, and I need more pages. So what do you think I did? Say your answer out loud no, no, no, no, no. This is what I did. I put down the book and I went up those stairs and at the top of the stairs, was my bedroom and I went into my bedroom and I got into my bed and do you think I was able to sleep?
25:26
No, so what was I thinking about? So I got out of my bed and I went down the stairs and I sat in that chair on Perry Winkle Lane With only five pages left. And I read one page and how many pages did I have left? And then I read it again and I went upstairs to Story and I got up to my bed and I said to myself John Edward Schumacher, my legal name, you are ridiculous. I got up there and I went downstairs and I sat in the chair 22, 24, perry Winkle Lane and I finished reading the book August. And when I finished reading the book, I cried and I cried and I cried, and that was just what I did. I went into serious debt because in one year I bought and I gave away over 500 copies of the book that I read in that chair.
26:28
Would you like to know the name of the book? Yes, I'm not going to tell you because it doesn't matter. Would you like to know the name of the book? Yes, that book is called the One and Only Ivan.
26:59 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
We just got to hear a little bit of the rally for reading at Shenandoah University. When the kids hear you and John come in, you guys are like rock stars and I know you had said at one point that you weren't a reader when you were a kid until you found Charlotte's Web. How do you encourage kids to have that kind of reaction and be that kind of reader?
27:23 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
Well, I'll tell you a lot of that is John Schu. He is just remarkable If you haven't been lucky enough to see him in action. He just has this incredible ability to hone in on just the right kid and give them just the right book, and he'll be looking at, you know, a sea of 800 smiling fourth grade faces, and somehow still managed to do that. I think for me it's really important for kids to understand that you don't have to like every book. You may have to read it in your classroom setting, but you know, for some kids it's a graphic novel. I like to mention Dogman, and the kids just go insane.
28:04
I love Dogman. For some it's poetry, for some it's nonfiction. Everybody has a different way to fall in love with the written word and they have to know that it doesn't always happen overnight. I love telling them that I was not much of a reader because so many authors are, that I was not much of a reader because so many authors are, and I think it makes you feel a little more comfortable with the possibility that it's a learned skill, like anything. So I always say talk to your mom and dad, talk to your librarian, talk to your teacher, talk to your bookseller, listen to your podcaster and you'll find that perfect book that makes that difference in your life.
28:44 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
And the world of reading is such an incredible world to be a part of when you find that book that you fall in love with.
28:50 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
It is. It's a community, and you don't realize it until you're there.
28:56 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I love that. So my last, really random question for you You've got all these wonderful animal books. So many times an animal or a tree shows up as the lead character. Tell us, are you an animal-ish person? Is it animals that move you? Are you going to be continuing to write about animals and if so, what's the craziest animal that you would love to research animal?
29:20 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
that you would love to research. Oh, where to even start? It's just endless. That was one of the nice things about Animorphs, because we got to experiment with so many animals but we didn't have the time to really do the in-depth research that, I found, is my favorite part of the whole thing. Yeah, I thought I was going to be a veterinarian when I grew up. I was sure, and in fact in high school I worked for a vet and loved it. But I was a lot more interested in the cognitive end of things and the you know, that chasm between us and them and how we perceive the world, and so that ended up leading me slowly but surely toward writing from the point of view of animals.
30:02
It's really a tight wire act, though, because you're always being anthropomorphic, we're always guessing, we just don't know, and so you can have very you know Jack London on one end of things, and then you can have Dr Doolittle on the other, and you have to kind of decide how much perception you're going to venture into. But boy next. Actually, the book I'm working on right now features a cat, but also a couple of stuffed animals, and I have never done sentient stuffed animals before. All the same problems apply Can they move, how much can they move? Can they talk, how much can they perceive? And you have to create these rules. It's like writing any fantasy, I guess.
30:46 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Yeah, and I guess the closest you would have ventured with that would have been Crenshaw. In terms of Rue, are we an animal? Are we imaginary? You get to be the judge.
30:57 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
Yes, I hope I left that entirely ambiguous, you did, and it was a good ambiguity.
31:05 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Good Well, that sounds really interesting and I know you're working on a sequel to Dogtown, is that correct?
31:08 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
Yes, and it's coming out next September with the amazing Jennifer Choldenko and it's so much fun and we've got to tour together and it was an absolute delight. I'm about to go on a solo tour now for family and it won't be nearly as much fun.
31:24 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I was going to say it's got to be fun when you can tour with somebody.
31:28 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
Yeah, Just to commiserate and share coffee. You know Exactly.
31:33 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, Katherine, thank you so much for stopping in today. Y'all, I'm going to drop the link to get the One and Only Family, but you also should be on the lookout for the Dogtown sequel as well and check any and and all of the other books. If you haven't picked up Wish Tree, it's not too late. You should be reading that one too.
31:52 - Katherine Applegate (Guest)
Thank you so much. I love chatting with you.
31:55 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I love chatting with you too, thank you. You've been listening to the Adventures in Learning podcast with your host, dr Diane. If you like what you're hearing, please subscribe, download and let us know what you think, and please tell a friend. If you want the full show notes and the pictures, please go to drdianeadventurescom. We look forward to you joining us on our next adventure.
