Becoming Vanessa Brantley-Newton -- Manifesting Joy With the Queen of Kindergarten (and Everywhere Else)

This week on the Adventures in Learning podcast, we celebrate the book birthday of Nesting Dolls  and the real-life birthday of its author/illustrator Vanessa Brantley Newton. Join us for an exuberant episode that touches on everything from dyslexia to embracing your inner five year old. We talk about the importance of books as windows and mirrors, manifesting your dreams, and creating space to connect with others. And Vanessa's story of how she overcame challenges to become the beloved illustrator, author, and entrepreneur she is today is inspirational. Get ready for a dose of feel-good as we meet the Queen of Kindergarten (and everywhere else) Vanessa Brantley-Newton!  

• [01:24] Vanessa discusses Nesting Dolls, her latest picture book emphasizing diversity and self-acceptance.
• [08:53] Vanessa's background as a makeup artist and experiences caring for sick children broaden her perspective.
• [13:01] The importance of self-care, exploring diverse perspectives on social media, and experiencing different cultures
• [16:37] Manifestation techniques and importance of teaching self-love to children
• [20:01] The journey from working multiple jobs to becoming a NYT bestselling illustrator
• [26:42] How she connected with fellow artists through blogging and built her career
• [28:08] Valuing one's dreams and using life experiences for creative inspiration
• [29:26] Three of Vanessa's favorite books: Don't Let Auntie Mabel Bless the Table, Grandma's Purse, and Becoming Vanessa 
• [31:36] How Becoming Vanessa reflects her personal journey
• [32:54] Collaborating with Derek Barnes on the King and Queen of Kindergarten series
• [37:41] Christmas collection with Target
• [40:30]  Ezra Jack Keats' shared influence on us, particularly The Snowy Day and Peter's Chair 
• [41:43] Shared love of the Eric Carle Museum of Picture Book Art, and that time when Dr. Diane's daughter licked Eric Carle
• [44:14] Growing up with dyslexia 
• [48:46] Upcoming projects, including

Transcript

[00:01] Dr. Diane: Wonder, curiosity, connection. Where will your adventures take you? I'm Dr. Diane, and thank you for joining me on today's episode of Adventures in Learning. So welcome to the Adventures in Learning podcast. Today we are going to celebrate both the real life birthday and the book birthday of Vanessa Brantley Newton. She's got a fabulous book called Nesting Dolls that's coming out this week, and I am so excited to welcome her to the show. She is the Queen of Kindergarten herself, has written so many uplifting, beautiful picture books, including Becoming Vanessa. So, Vanessa, welcome to the show.

[00:46] Vanessa: Thank you for having me, Diane. I'm so excited to be here.

[00:49] Dr. Diane: I am so excited to have you know, I got to meet you at the Shenandoah University Children's Literature Conference. And I realized I was looking through my notes. I don't have any for you because I was so mesmerized, my pen literally went down, and I just sat there absorbing. I knew I wanted you on the show at that moment. So let's have a fabulous conversation about Vanessa. Let's start with Nesting Dolls. Tell us about the new book.

[01:24] Vanessa: So Nesting Dolls is very near and dear to my heart. I'm going to show your audience a copy of the book. This is beautiful, and this is very near and dear to my heart because as a child of color back in the day, it wasn't the happiest thing in my life because I saw people around me that didn't look like me. I went to a predominantly white school with white children, and the teacher actually struck a lot of fear in me, and it kind of messed me up for school, and school kind of went downhill for me after that. But skin is something that all of us have that comes in every shade. Even if you're white, there are different shades of white, different shades of black, brown, other. Everybody has a different shade. I worked as a makeup artist for 30 years, and the one thing I used to tell my customers all the time, they would go, oh, just give me that particular beige color. And I'm like, no, you're not beige. And they're like, oh, well, she wears it, and I'm the same color as she is. No, you're not.

[02:34] Dr. Diane: Right. You're unique.

[02:36] Vanessa: Exactly. You're unique. And I would stand there and this is before mixing your own foundation became this famous thing. Now that we do as women or them, it is mixing it and making it work for your skin complexion. And it's everything your skin, your skin houses all the wonderful muscles and everything else you have. And it's the one thing that we tend to hate some of us. And as a child, I really did not like the fact that I was sent to South Carolina for the summer, where I would be out in the fields with my grandparents, working in the fields, picking cotton or vegetables or tending the hogs or cows or whatever. It was always in the hot sun. And I would always get dark, dark, dark, beautiful, dark. But I didn't understand it right. And Nesting Dolls is kind of this story of a little girl who goes and she visits her family and she gets to see that mom and her sister, they look very much alike. And she's the darker one of the group. She doesn't say that to the reader, because what I want is the reader to look at the pictures and look at her face, because there are things that are told in storybooks that are not always told in words, but told rather through pictures. And so we get to see the picture of what it's like to be a child of dark skin, and that she measures herself by everybody else around her. They're smarter than she is. They're more beautiful than she is. Until her grandmother shows her something that changes everything and that we're all connected all within each other. And that's why we call it Nesting Dolls, because they're working on something very special where all of them are all involved to make one. And that's what this book is about.

[04:35] Dr. Diane: Is there a favorite page or a favorite passage you want to show or share?

[04:39] Vanessa: Yes, there's a favorite page. Let's see. Let me find a favorite page. I have two, actually.

[04:46] Dr. Diane: OK, share both.

[04:47] Vanessa: So this is the page where they're in low country, South Carolina, with her grandparents, and she's meeting her grandparents. And if you look real close, look at everybody in the picture. Grandma, her sister, her mom, and even her dad and granddad are much lighter than she is. Okay, the other one that I love, and there's a few of them, honestly, I have so enjoyed doing this or making this book, rather, when I share the pages. And I have a lot of these in my books, where I have the one single page that has no words on it, but there's something being told in a story. And so if you look, you see all these beautiful shades of brown and deeper brown caramel, pecan, tan. You see it all in there.

[05:54] Dr. Diane: It's beautiful.

[05:55] Vanessa: And they're all coming together to make that one little doll.

[05:59] Dr. Diane: I love that.

[06:01] Vanessa: And so that's one or two of my favorite pages in the book.

[06:06] Dr. Diane: Yes, it's beautiful. And what you were saying about color and appreciating, skin color and appreciating, the darkness resonates. I think I told you earlier, I'm teaching a class for Shenandoah University this semester. And with my students, we're looking at multicultural picture books and books as windows and mirrors and sliding glass doors. And the first day of class, I had a whole array of books out. And I had this one student who saw Becoming Vanessa, and she saw the little girl on the cover and she says, I need that book. And I said, okay. And she goes, that's the book I wish I had had when I was a girl, I never saw a book with a kid who looked like me. And I found myself thinking that's part of what makes your books so powerful is they're uplifting and joyous, and it's kids just being kids.

[07:00] Vanessa: That's it. That's it. It's in my heart. It's what I wake up to in the morning. It's the last thing I think about before I go to bed. I worked in the hospital for 30 years while being a makeup artist as well. I had three jobs, actually, and I took care of little children who had cancer, who had sickle cell anemia, who all kinds of you name it, the disease, whatever, and every ethnicity that you could possibly imagine, from every mixture from a Filipino mom to an African father or an African American mother and a Swiss father. It was amazing. So you get all this beautiful, rich mixing of cultures and everything, but these people would come in, and I would take care of their babies. Some of their babies were so tiny that and I have tiny hands. I could fit their baby in the palm of my hand. And my job was to, unfortunately, draw blood from these babies. But what it did was it taught me so much about people. First of all, when a family is going through that kind of pain of a child being sick, you can't do anything to make it go away, and you just want your child to be better. You become a totally different person. And I got to see that in real life, but I got to see these babies who were just beautiful to me, and I would study their faces, and I would study their antics, and I would study when they were really happy, because today I'm going home. And then the ones who weren't going home and maybe not even getting better, I was faced with all of that, and it made me have a different value to life because I'm about children. I'm for and about children. I am perpetually five years old. I don't ever want to grow up.

[08:53] Dr. Diane: Absolutely. It's overrated. 

[08:54] Vanessa: Yes, it is. Exactly. I am five years old, and I'm going to stay five years old. Okay? So when you want to have those real adult conversations, I mean, I'll join you for a second. Then like a little kid. I'm off. Let's go find some paper or something to draw on, or let's find a doll or a train or something to play with. That's just the way that I am. But it caused me to love so many children of different ethnicities because I was there, and I got to see them in pain. I got to see them happy. I got to see them joyful. I got to see them sad. I got to see them mad and angry. I got to see them surprised and confused, all of that. And sometimes we're wondering, why are we in this particular place. I want to be a children's book illustrator, and here I am being a vampire. I'm taking these kids blood. But what it did for me, Diane, was it caused me to see beyond just what other people see in picture books. I go for your emotions. I'm always going for your emotions. I want you to feel because we are dumbing it down right now with food, with all kinds of pleasures, as far as you know what I mean. We dumb it down how we really feel that we're having today. I'm not feeling my best mentally. And there's nothing wrong with you because you're not feeling your best today.

[10:20] Dr. Diane: Right.

[10:20] Vanessa: Every day you're not going to wake up happy. There are going to be some life circumstances that's going to make you really doubt whether you want to be here or not. Okay. And you need to know that you're a human being and you're not less than anybody else. Those thoughts of you hurting yourself, they're very real. And sometimes it's because we don't give ourselves the time that we need to just be human. Be human.

[10:43] Dr. Diane: Right.

[10:44] Vanessa: Just connect. Yes. And connect with people that don't look like you.

[10:50] Dr. Diane: Yes.

[10:51] Vanessa: Because we tend to think, oh, they don't understand. Trust me, honey. Get in the room with some mamas. You will find out there is more alike than different.

[11:01] Dr. Diane: Absolutely. And you've got to put yourself out there and be willing to take that risk and get to know other people, get to know other ways of looking at the world.

[11:13] Vanessa: Yes. Very true. It is about the best gift you could possibly give yourself I tell people all the time is travel. Instead of buying a whole bunch of nice clothes and jewelry that you'll wear occasionally or whatever, spend some money on a trip, go somewhere you've never gone before. Meet some people that don't look like you, that don't talk like you don't have the same culture as you do. I went to France, and I love, I love, love going to Paris. It is fun. It is adventurous. It is full of culture. You're going to find that they move slow, that art is very important part of life, that food is art. Not just art on the wall. Food is art.

[11:59] Dr. Diane: Right. It's all art.

[12:00] Vanessa: It's how you absolutely, absolutely. Life is art. How fast is that? So let's treat ourselves, I mean, you know, even if it's you sitting on your couch and watching a YouTube video about traveling to France, it's better than you just sitting there feeling horrible and feeling like nothing's happening for you. Do it. Watch what happens.

[12:23] Dr. Diane: Exactly. And that's part of that conversation that I had with my students about windows and mirrors and sliding glass doors. I had one kid say, well, this doesn't impact me because I'm not reading anymore, which A, that's a big problem we have to work on.

[12:36] Vanessa: Right.

[12:37] Dr. Diane: But they are consuming social media. So follow accounts of people who aren't like you. Follow accounts of people across the world. And don't just follow one account. Follow multiple accounts from multiple perspectives. Because just like people, no one account is going to be your single story. You can't wrap up a culture in one book or one account or one person.

[13:01] Vanessa: You are so right. You are so right. And I think that is a gift that you've given them is that we have this portal to travel to called YouTube. And if you use it right, trust me, I'll give your audience. For instance, we tend to think about the negative so much, what's not happening, what's not going to happen. You have 50 people around you telling you, no, you can't do that, that won't ever work or whatever. But it's something that you really, really want. And I'm about that thing called manifestation. I know a lot of people. Oh, you're into metaphysics? Yes, I am. I am. Because I learned something. What you think about, you bring about, and what you talk about, you walk it out. So if you're always is talking about gossip, things like that, that's what's going on in your life as well. Trust me, somebody's talking about you. If you're talking about somebody else, somebody else is talking about you. But if you're spending your time creating, writing, reading, okay, watching places, maybe you've never been to Switzerland. And you know what? I just like to see what happens in Switzerland. What is their culture? You'd be surprised. Or I'm going to watch the French culture. Everything I knew about France, I learned from YouTube. And of course my friends who are living in France and travel to France all the time. But I wanted to know what is it like to have dinner in Paris? And they explained, Vanessa, that the waiter is going to come over and he's going to ask you what you want. He's going to go back and he's going to take your order in and your food is going to come. He's not going to come back to check on you to see if is everything good or whatever. No. The next time you will see that man is when he comes to bring your cheese platter. And after he brings your cheese platter, he's going to offer you some dessert and you can sit there for 3 hours. And I just thought it was the most unusual thing, but it was wonderful once I got there, but I manifested it. My husband had a heart attack. And I thought that we weren't going to be able to go. And he said, I will never ever do this again. He said after this heart attack, he said, I'm going to live my best life. We went to France and had the most incredible time in Paris, France for two weeks. It was the most awesome trip I've ever had in my whole entire life. Different culture, different people. It was amazing. We manifested it because we sat there, we dreamt, we played, we pretended. We would go to the store and get croissants and hot chocolate and bring it back home and we would pretend like we were in France. It was amazing. It was amazing. And then to have it happen. So I want to tell your students one of the things or people that are listening to this. If you're a children's teacher, you like to teach or whatever, or you like to write children's books, one of the things you can do is just on a piece of paper, write the title of your book and stick it on your refrigerator. And every day look at that and go, that's my book. And pretend I'm getting prepared to go to a book signing for my know or, hey, this is a newspaper article. And my book ended up in the New York Times. Anything to promote that joy of, wow, what is it like to have that happen and pretend it's happening to you? Watch what will happen afterwards. Watch.

[16:37] Dr. Diane: Love that. That's amazing. And having met your husband in Winchester, I can 100% see him buying into that with you.

[16:47] Vanessa: Yes. He wasn't always like that, but he said, I've watched you manifest so many different things. I used to write down I am a New York Times best selling illustrator. I am now a New York Times bestselling illustrator. Twice.

[17:04] Dr. Diane: That is awesome.

[17:06] Vanessa: I never expected you know just to say my life was going to go that way. But when you want what you want, the universe wants to give it to you, especially when it's good and it's healthy. I love children. I love them and I want to see them protected. I want to see them see themselves because I do believe in my heart, when you can see yourself, you can be yourself and then you can free yourself. I truly believe that with all my heart. And I want to give that to every child because I don't believe that children come here, Diane, hating. We teach them to do so.

[17:41] Dr. Diane: Absolutely.

[17:42] Vanessa: It's a taught behavior. We can eradicate racism when we start teaching our children first to love themselves. But it's very important that you love yourself.

[17:52] Dr. Diane: Absolutely.

[17:53] Vanessa: Okay. With that port wine birthmark on your face, you need to love yourself. With down syndrome, you need to love yourself. With a missing arm, a leg, eye, ear, you need to still love yourself and value yourself and not compare yourself to other people. Because the first thing we do is, well, they have arms and I don't have any. But you're doing the most incredible thing because you don't have arms and you still learn to tie your shoes with your mouth, but you're doing it. You have no arms, but you're able to take a frying pan and fry up and crack your own egg. I know this because I'm watching YouTube and watching students and children who are doing what they need to do for themselves and their parents are not making them feel sorry for themselves. But you know what? You can do this, and you can live your best life regardless of what you have or what you don't. So absolutely. Let's manifest some good stuff.

[19:01] Sponsor Ad: 

[20:01] Dr. Diane: Absolutely. And you actually took me to where I wanted to go next, which is how did you go from the hospital and your three jobs to getting to where you are today as a New York Times bestselling illustrator? How did that adventure in learning come about?

[20:33] Vanessa: Oh, my gosh, if I will tell you, such rotten stuff happened, unfortunately, because life is life, and life was life. At the time I lost my mom, I was pregnant with baby, and I lost that baby and had to bury her. And it was kind of like labor pains. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So many things happening. But I find that sometimes in our lowest is when we create our best. And what I did was I had a little girl named Zoe, and I looked at Zoe's books, and I'd gone to college, I'd gone to FIT for Fashion, and I was making hats. At the time, I was a milliner so I was making hats, but I was never really getting into what I wanted to get into. Oh, then I started doing makeup artistry, so I was doing makeup for models and all that kind of stuff. And it was fun, but it still wasn't what I wanted to do. I wanted to draw. And after taking all of these courses at SVA in New York and FIT, there were still no opportunities. I went home. My husband bought me a computer after he lost his job, literally bought me a computer, and I taught myself how to draw on the computer. And I'm speeding this up as fast as I possibly can.

[21:50] Dr. Diane: Take your time.

[21:51] Vanessa: And after learning how to teach myself how to draw, I did it. Not with expensive software. I literally went to the store and got this cheap little program for $10 called Orly Draws. And Orly was this little girl from Jamaica, and she would come on, today I'm going to teach you how to draw a circle. You take your paint, and you do like this. And then I'm going to teach you how to draw a square. All you got to do is take it here and there. And look, you got a square. Now, if you put a rectangle or you put a triangle on top, you've got to the house, look at what you've done. And she would just make me feel know that five year old in me was feeling really wow. You know, I loved it. I was embarrassed, however, to tell people that I was training on a program called Orly. But Orly taught me eye and hand coordination, because you need that as a digital artist. Well, many years passed. I started a blog, and I want to blog about my process, you know my journey. And I befriended, Diane, so many people. It’s almost bringing me to tears, because almost all of them have become published children's book illustrators. Or are working in the industry of games or videos or even movies. And we would blog, and we would go to each other's blogs and leave messages of encouragement. You can do it, don't fret about that person that said something negative about your work. You just keep your head down, and you keep doing all of that. I remember getting Zoe's book, The Snowy Day by Ezra Jack Keats, and I remember sitting in Barnes and Nobles on the floor and bursting into tears because I'm dyslexic. And so the words never made sense to me, but I read the words that day, and it made perfect sense to me. And I fell in love with the pictures, and I went home, literally, and started working on a new portfolio with children, jumping and running and showing all kinds of expression. One day, a friend of mine came over, and we had been friends for years, literally eight years, and never talked about what each other did. All she knew, that I was a makeup artist and a singer. That's all she knew. And I knew she was a dancer. That was it. She came over, and she said, Vanessa, I want to pray with you. And I was like, I don't want to. She said, Vanessa, I want to pray with you. And she looks around the room, and she goes, Vanessa, who does all this artwork? Because I had artwork everywhere. It was all over the dining room table, all over the sofa. It was everywhere. And my husband asked me, can you clean up before she comes? I tried. I really did. You all I tried couldn't clean it all up. She goes, you never told me you were an illustrator. I said, yeah, I'm a wannabe. She said, no, you're not a wannabe, you're an illustrator. She said, who do you do this for? I said, Well, I'm trying to build up my portfolio. I'm trying to get out there and get some work. I said, Ray's not working, I'm not working and I need to make some money. And unemployment is getting ready to run out. She goes, Vanessa, do you know who I work for? I said, no. She said, Vanessa, you don't know who I work for? I said, no, I don't know who you work for. She said. Vanessa I work for Scholastic Books. You're hired. Wow. All I can say is when preparation meets opportunity, they kiss and they have a baby over you. And that baby can be a baby of success. And that's what happened from it, literally. She was the editor of a small magazine inside of Scholastic called what is it called? Urban. It was Urban something, the Urban League, that's what it's called. And it was a magazine that was given to children who don't get books. So it has stories and pictures in it and everything, but it's just a magazine. And I so wanted to be a part of giving those children something to read. And so I started my first jobs in Scholastic and worked with them for many years until opportunity came and doors open. And now I'm doing what was in my heart to do. But it did not come without preparation. Sometimes we're saying we want to do something. I tell people all the time, if you tell me you want to be a children's book illustrator, I'm looking to see what books you have on your shelf. If you don't have those books, don't tell me you want to be a teacher and you're not reading books about teaching or you're not around children. You don't like children.

[26:42] Dr. Diane: Right.

[26:43] Vanessa: Shouldn't be a teacher.

[26:45] Dr. Diane: You might want something else to do.

[26:47] Vanessa: Absolutely. But they knew, all my friends knew. Vanessa loves kids. Did you see? I can send my kid over to her house instead of going to the library because she has every book. I do, I do. But this is something I really want to get across to your listeners is that you're worth your dream and all the work and different things that come. Sometimes it seems like, well, this is not serving a purpose working in an office, but you're learning office skills that you're going to need for your business because it's a business of children's book illustration or writing. Okay. So nothing goes to waste. If you're working in a hospital, you're getting to see people's attitudes and their personalities. That adds to your stories. You can come up with the most interesting stories. This is Mr. Craig. Mr. Craig has know and how he may have gotten over MS or the people that he met along his MS journey. Whatever your stories protagonists and different things. They're locked into all of the things that surround you. You don't have to look outside of yourself. So I really want to encourage them with that. Dream big. And when you dream big, dream bigger. Dream so scared big. It scares you. That's when you know you're on the right track.

[28:08] Dr. Diane: I love that. I've always told my daughters that there are no wasted experiences, that even those things that don't make sense right now, it's going to come back and make sense that it's leading you to that next thing.

[28:22] Vanessa: Yes, it is. Absolutely. I totally agree. Totally agree.

[28:26] Dr. Diane: So you've got so many amazing books. What are some of your favorite moments or your favorite books that you've put out into the world so far?

[28:37] Vanessa: By far three in particular that really just stand out to me. There was one that I wrote way back. I was about 24 when I wrote this book. The name of the book is called Don't Let Auntie Mabel Bless the Table. And you know why? She’ll pray over the table until the food gets cold. Don't Let Auntie Mabel Bless the Table was one of the first. The second would be Grandma's Purse, and it is a big seller. One of the biggest sellers that I have is that one of Grandma's Purse. It speaks to so many people about the whole intergenerational relationship. And then the third one, the third one would definitely be Becoming Vanessa. Absolutely.

[29:26] Dr. Diane: And that one was the closest to who you were, is that right?

[29:30] Vanessa: Yep.

[29:31] Dr. Diane: It's a little semi autobiographical.

[29:34] Vanessa: Yes, honestly.

[29:36] Dr. Diane: And I love that one because I love the Vanessa who's too big to be contained in her classroom and is just so full of life and then has to deal with the constraints everybody wants to put on.

[29:49] Vanessa: Absolutely. Absolutely. We come from a generation of you're only as good as the next outfit you have. You're only how your hair looks today. You're only as good as what shoes your mom and dad put on you or what you're bringing for lunch or your book bag. And it's so much more than that. It is so much more than that. Vanessa finds that all of these things that she's put on are not serving her. She's not really being know and finding out the meaning of her name. And I really wanted to send a message to parents as well. We need to think very deeply when we name our children. Think very deeply because you're calling that child that for the rest of their lives. So you want to really take stock in naming and even doing naming very, very important. I know for me in the African American community, it's important. I know in the Jewish community, it's extraordinarily important. Your name, if it's Seth or Zoe or whatever, those names are so very sacred. And so you want to take the time to name your child something meaningful. When I call Zoe, my daughter's name is Zoe. It means the God kind of life. There is no death in it. And it is because I lost her sister, and I didn't want to experience that again. And so every time I call her name, she goes, I love when you call my name Zoe. She said, I love my name. She said, I just know one dot over the E or know different things. But it's so very special. And that's what Becoming Vanessa was when she found out who she was.

[31:36] Dr. Diane: And that's such a beautiful twist when she gets that understanding of what means.

[31:42] Vanessa: Absolutely. And that's exactly what happened to me. Exactly what happened to me.

[31:48] Dr. Diane: I love that. And then you've worked with Derek Barnes on the hugely successful King and Queen of Kindergarten series.

[31:56] Vanessa: Absolutely. Derek and I are like sister and brother. We love each other. When he came up with that book King of Kindergarten, he showed me a picture of Nambi, the baby of his four boys, and I knew immediately what I wanted Nambi to look like. And I know what Derek likes as well, as far as clothing, how he dresses, how he styles himself. And I really kind of wanted to give him that. I really wanted to give him that. But it was so much fun.

[32:26] Dr. Diane: Well, and that book has, I think, had a huge impact for kindergarten teachers, too, because you've got your standard back to school books. And I love this one because, again, we're providing windows and mirrors and you're helping kids walk into that setting, seeing themselves.

[32:43] Vanessa: Absolutely.

[32:44] Dr. Diane: Seeing others. And it's just a beautiful book for building that sense of joy about starting your adventure.

[32:50] Vanessa: Absolutely.

[32:51] Dr. Diane: And that sense of acceptance and love, I think.

[32:54] Vanessa: Yes, definitely. Definitely. And Derek is so awesome. As a parent, I have watched this man grow, nurture, love, celebrate, support four boys who have done such great things.

[33:14] Dr. Diane: Bless him for that.

[33:15] Vanessa: Exactly. I tell him often, when are you going to do your book on parenting? Because you are excellent at it. And he goes, no, V, I'm not perfect. I said, It's not about being perfect. You're perfect for them and they're perfect for you, and that's what makes it so special. It's not about, oh, I get everything right. No, but it is about what, you know, that can help other parents when they're struggling. How do I get him to listen? How do I get him to be motivated or whatever? I said, you do this with all four of your boys that have specifically different personalities. Each one is totally different, and you parent each one in such a profound and loving and supportive way. We need that.

[34:05] Dr. Diane: It's so critical. We need that so badly.

[34:08] Vanessa: Yes, we do.

[34:12] Dr. Diane: So you're also an incredible businesswoman. I mean, thinking about the stuff that you've done. You've got the nesting dolls that you're actually making to go with the book Nesting Dolls. You've got a contract with Target, yes? Okay. First of all, when do you sleep? Second of all, tell us about sort of how you've gone about setting up these additional spinoffs to your art?

[34:37] Vanessa: I love art, period. The whole process of art, whether it's sculpture, whether it's rug making, music, playing an instrument. I'm a percussionist. I'm a singer as well. I do voiceovers for commercials, things like that. And I'm always finding something to do, and people go, you do too many things. You're out there doing all kinds of things. When you're a child that's been rejected the way I have, you kind of create your own world. And in my world, it was, we're not going to be afraid to touch that clay over there. We're going to ball it up and make something out of it. We're going to try some kind of way to take the garbage that somebody threw out and turn it into something wonderful. And so I've been like that since a child. And so the Target thing really came as a manifestation as well. I kept telling a friend of mine, I said, I keep seeing Christian Robinson, his books in the store, and now you know, little posters and stuffed animals and different things like that.

[35:42] Dr. Diane: There's a blanket I have.

[35:44] Vanessa: There you go, my girl. I love my Diane. Yes, I do. Oh, my gosh. You and I, we would be spending so much time together, it'd be ridiculous.

[35:52] Dr. Diane: We would. We need to live in the same place.

[35:53] Vanessa: We do. But when I saw that, I was like, I would really like to do that. And I kind of wrote it down in the notebook. I wrote it down for seven days that this is what I wanted. I get a call one day from my agent, hey, some people from Target are looking for you. I said, really? For what? She said, well, you know, your book is selling in the store, and they're very impressed with Just Like Me and Grandma's Purse. It's done great sales. They're wondering if you were interested in doing a project. And I was like, okay, cool. I'm thinking it's going to be something small, Diane, not anything big. You probably want another book, whatever. When they told me, said, we want you to do Christmas, I was like, Excuse me, you want me to do what? And they said, we want you to do Christmas, and gave me carte blanche. They said, what do you remember about Christmas? My best Christmas was 1968. And I said, I remember how people just came to the stores to shop. And in the neighborhood that we lived in, which was Irvington, New Jersey, it was white, it was black, it was Hispanic, it was Jewish, it was Asian, it was Muslim. It was everybody. And I just wanted to give that to the buyer, is that Christmas is not just about one culture. It's about everybody coming together to show kindness, to show love, to show care, to celebrate a holiday. And I said I wanted to give that and I wanted to give that feel. And they said that you did exactly that, to the point that the snowman that I did for them sold out already? It's just September. You all. It's sold out. It's gone.

[37:41] Dr. Diane: So what I'm hearing is, if we want your Christmas stuff, we need to run out.

[37:45] Vanessa: Oh, you need to run and go get it. Run and get it. Run and get it. And it's all kinds of stuff paper goods, plates, wrapping paper, ornaments to hang up anything you could possibly imagine.

[38:00] Dr. Diane: Wow. That is so exciting.

[38:02] Vanessa: I'm excited. I really am. I'm very excited.

[38:04] Dr. Diane: And if folks want to get hold of a nesting doll, do you have an example of what you're making now?

[38:10] Vanessa: I thought I had one in here, but it sold.

[38:14] Dr. Diane: Oh, my goodness. Well, that's a good thing.

[38:17] Vanessa: Ray packed it up to take it. But I do have some pictures that I will share with Diane so that she can share them with you all. But yes, the nesting dolls. As a matter of fact, I am going to be at Park Road's Bookstore on October I think it is October 7, I believe it is for a book signing. And I will be giving away a stack of nesting dolls.

[38:42] Dr. Diane: Oh, that's exciting.

[38:43] Vanessa: So it’s very cool.

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[38:50] Dr. Diane: When I'm looking at the books behind you and I'm like, wait, I know those characters, I think I spied Peter.

[40:04] Vanessa: On the shelf behind oh, yes, you did. There's Peter. And there's our little girl from One Love. And then also I am a Toy Story fan.

[40:17] Dr. Diane: I was going to say I see Jesse, I think behind One Love.

[40:22] Vanessa: I love Toy Story. Oh, my goodness. Any of the pixar movies. Honestly, I'm a Pixar girl. I love it.

[40:29] Dr. Diane: The art is really cool.

[40:30] Vanessa: It really is. It's beautiful.

[40:32] Dr. Diane: So, Ezra Jack Keats, I'm assuming, was an influence because you were talking about your connection to The Snowy Day And I remember that being, it wasn't The Snowy Day, it was actually Peter's Chair that was my heart book as a child, and it had everything to do with growing up in an apartment complex in Germany because my dad was in the army. Just like Peter. I lived in an apartment complex, and I had a dog named Muffins. He had a dog named Willie, but they looked alike. And then when I was five, my parents decided to rock my world and bring a sister into my world, and like, Peter. I was not amused.

[41:12] Vanessa: Oh, my gosh.

[41:13] Dr. Diane: So Peter was, my he was my first mirror book that I absolutely remember reading. And I look at it as an adult, and I go, I can also see where it would have been a window. But at the time, it was pure mirror. It was all about what we were both going through at the time.

[41:32] Vanessa: That's powerful.

[41:33] Dr. Diane: And I can see obviously, we both chose to wear our Hungry Caterpillar T- shirts today. So I'm assuming Eric Carle was another big, big influence.

[41:43] Vanessa: Big influence.

[41:44] Dr. Diane: You do a lot of collage, right?

[41:46] Vanessa: Yes, I do a lot of collage. I was just at the museum.

[41:52] Dr. Diane: Best museum in the world, the Eric Carle Museum of Picture Book Art.

[41:59] Vanessa: Listen, save your money. I know you want to go to Disney World. Save your money and go to the Eric Carle Museum.

[42:06] Dr. Diane: Go to Amherst, Massachusetts. I agree.

[42:08] Vanessa: Amherst, Massachusetts. You will not regret it. It is freaking amazing. It's amazing.

[42:14] Dr. Diane: It really is. I mean, the art is incredible. The studio, getting to take your picture with the caterpillar. Once upon a time, he actually used to walk the halls, like, way on back when my little girls were little, because my youngest, who just turned 21, is the same age as the museum. And back in the day, she was, like, three years old, museum’s brand new, just opened, and we were there, and he was supposed to be signing later that day, but people didn't know about the museum yet, so there wasn't a line out the door. And so we're in the museum, and she sees him and recognizes him from the picture on the book flap. And she goes running up to him on her little toddler legs, and he picks her up, and she throws her arms around Eric Carle. And she licked his beard because she wanted to know what it tasted like. And Eric was so good because he didn't just drop her. He very carefully put her back down, and he actually drew this gorgeous butterfly in her book, which I still have to this day. I mean, he was very kind about the whole thing.

[43:22] Vanessa: Yes.

[43:23] Dr. Diane: But she felt that connection to this artist because we had read all of his books and she knew who he was, and so he was family.

[43:35] Vanessa: How beautiful is that, though? My gosh.

[43:38] Dr. Diane: But, I mean, to have a museum.

[43:39] Vanessa: Like that built to do that I'm telling you. That's amazing. That's amazing.

[43:45] Dr. Diane: I just love that museum.

[43:46] Vanessa: This is why I do what I do to have kids run up to you and want to hug you and just love on you. She wanted to taste his beard.

[43:55] Dr. Diane: She thought it was cotton candy.

[43:57] Vanessa: Absolutely. There you go. Absolutely.

[43:59] Dr. Diane: But yeah, it was just incredible. And so I'm thinking about books that I know you and I both love, and I'm wondering, you touched on Dyslexia, which I know from my, I have a niece with Dyslexia, and I know how challenging that can be.

[44:12] Vanessa: Very much. Very much.

[44:14] Dr. Diane: Did you find that there were books or artists growing up that sort of unlocked that world for know.

[44:24] Vanessa: There's an artist, his name is Ed Emberley, I think it is, and he does shapes.

[44:32] Dr. Diane: I remember those.

[44:33] Vanessa: Yeah. And it helped me so much because somebody got, somebody somebody saw how Vanessa sees words and letters and things like that. Literally no books as a kid, that really kind of stuck out to me, except for The Snowy Day. It was the simplicity of the cutout of the Ezra did. It was the color combination. That red snowsuit was everything in the way, but it was also in the way that he painted the snow with the pinks and the soft blues. And it was the neighborhood. It just reminded me of where I lived when I was a little girl in Newark, New Jersey. That was a neighborhood that I lived in. The wallpaper that he uses in the book is the same wallpaper we had in our apartment. So these were for my eyes, because Dyslexia really has to do with your eyes and how your eyes really view things. And so words just kind of jump. And so you got to think about how are you reading words that are jumping across the page, and you can't make them stop in your head. It's kind of going like now can you just stop so I can read? You know? And thank God for my wonderful teacher named Mrs. Russell, who knew that I didn't read well, and she never wanted to embarrass children that didn't read well. She puts me on her lap and she opens up The Snowy Day I'm 60 years old. I can't wipe that book off of my brain. It stuck with me, the feeling. I still smell Mrs. Russell. I still smell her. I still hear her breathing as she read to me, this story. And for me, the pictures told me what the story was. And so for me, picture books have been very powerful in that when I didn't understand the words or when the words wouldn't behave and stand still on the page, I can make up my own story to the book, but grateful for the read aloud that teachers do when you're sitting your students there and they're reading. And yes, this is the way that I get to at least experience what reading is about. But it was very hard, Diane, extremely hard.

[46:59] Dr. Diane: And has it influenced sort of the way that you present books to kids today?

[47:04] Vanessa: Absolutely. I want you to look at every little thing in the book in Becoming Vanessa. If you look at every page, you see a caterpillar. Go back and look at the book again.

[47:14] Dr. Diane: I'm going to do that.

[47:18] Vanessa: This page has a caterpillar. It's a caterpillar around the rug. And those caterpillars are there to know when she goes into her little cocoon, that's her coming out the next day as a butterfly. And if you look at the shape of how she looks in that blanket on that page, that is kind of vertical. It's her in a cocoon. And when she comes out, much like when mom is asking her some questions about going to school the next day, that's her strengthening her wing.

[47:48] Dr. Diane: I love it.

[47:50] Vanessa: Hey, so are you ready to go to school today? A little. I hope so. But when she gets to school and she puts herself in front of the kids, that's when her wings to me have dried, and now she's owning it. Today I saw a butterfly outside of my window, and that is what my name means, butterfly. Vanessa means butterfly. That's everything.

[48:15] Dr. Diane: I love that. And you've given me a whole new way to look at the book, and as soon as I can wrestle it from my students, I will go through and look at it. Now, normally I have the books of the author I'm talking to on the shelf behind me, and literally every book you've written is out in the hands of a college student right now.

[48:33] Vanessa: I love it. I love it. Oh, my gosh. May it help them discover themselves.

[48:38] Dr. Diane: Exactly. So a couple more questions for you. What is coming up for you? What are the next big projects you're working on?

[48:46] Vanessa: I have another book coming out called Shake It Off. And if you've seen my Ted Talk on Diversity Designed by Adversity, it is the story that I share on stage about this little goat. And I suggest you really get the book. If you are a person wondering, how am I going to get out from all of this hate, hatred of self depression or whatever, we have to choose to shake some of this stuff off. Can't let everything stick to you. Okay? And what you do is you shake it off and you pack it underneath your feet and you shake it off and you pack it underneath your feet and you shake it off and shake it off and shake it off until you rise out of that depression, out of that mindset of I'm the less, I'm not the one they want or whatever. And you become stronger because you got through it. What was meant to hurt you has come to serve you. So that's what the book is really all about. So we have that coming up. I do have a pilot that's getting ready to come out with PBS.

[49:54] Dr. Diane: Really?

[49:55] Vanessa: Yes. And the show is called It's Me Miss V, where I do artwork with children between the ages of three and eight.

[50:04] Dr. Diane: Awesome.

[50:05] Vanessa: They come to my studio and we do art. We get to meet people like you. We get to meet artists and teachers and people in our neighborhood, if you will. It's not going to be movie stars all the time. And so that's the one thing I did not want. I wanted to meet professors and people who study art and love art and musicians and things like that. So I'm excited for this. So the pilot will come out sometime in the spring.

[50:37] Dr. Diane: Oh,  I'm looking forward to that. That sounds amazing. And so then the final question it's a question I love to finish with is what brings you joy right now and what brings you hope?

[50:53] Vanessa: What brings me joy is when I sit with students and they draw. I'll give you a great for instance, I teach at Storyteller Academy online, and this is where adults come to learn how to do children's books. And I have a lot of writers that come and they want to take this course in drawing, and they don't know anything about drawing. And so to dispel the myth of you got to be an artist in order to do it. So I teach them how to draw this lion, and I listen to adults say, this is the best picture I've ever drawn in my whole entire life, it just brings me joy. It fills my heart so much because they've already judged themselves and they let people it's amazing how the ten year old brain that said, I can do anything is hampered by one person saying, your picture is ugly and you never pick up a pencil again. But to see them at 80, some of them, some of my students are almost 90 years old and they're picking up pencils and they're drawing children's books. That's awesome. My hope is that we will continue to have conversations like this. That's my hope. My greatest hope is that we will teach children to love themselves and to love others. That's my hope.

[52:23] Dr. Diane: Well, you bring me so much hope, and your friendship is something that I treasure. Thank you so much for being on the Adventures in Learning podcast. Happy Birthday to you and Happy Book Birthday to Nesting Dolls. And for those who are listening, you're going to check out the show notes because they're going to be all kinds of resources in there. I want you to go to the YouTube as well so you can see us. And it's just going to be an amazing adventure.