The "Aha" Moment That Changes The World -- Adventures with Thomas Wheeler and Everwhen: The Doomsday Vault

Step into a realm where imagination dances with science, as Thomas Wheeler invites us on a captivating journey through time with his new middle grade fantasy (soon to be movie), Everwhen: The Doomsday Vault. Discover how a moment of meditation, a dash of Douglas Adams' time travel, and a lifetime of writing and world building helped bring this imaginative universe to life.

Episode Summary:

This week, Dr. Diane chats about creative spark, time travel, writing, and hope with screenwriter, showrunner, and producer Thomas Wheeler. You know Tom Wheeler for his feature films Puss in Boots and The Lego Ninjago Movie, as well as Cursed for Netflix, Empire for ABC, and The Cape for NBC. In this episode, we delve into Tom's newest creation, into his newest creation, Everwhen: The Doomsday Vault, a fascinating fusion of time travel, science, and imaginative storytelling. 

Sparked by a meditative moment, Tom weaves a world where imagination propels scientific discovery, led by the lively trio of Bertie, Zoe, and Millie. We also explore Tom's adventures in learning, and how he launched and sustained a successful writing career in Hollywood. 

Chapters:

01:30: Connecting Imagination and Science Through Time Travel Thomas Wheeler shares the inspiration behind Everwhen: The Doomsday Vault, the role of imagination in scientific discovery, and the vibrant dynamics between main characters Bertie, Zoe, and Millie.

13:28: Science and Math Easter Eggs, Plus The Screen Adaptation Uncover the challenges of weaving real math into storytelling in a time-travel universe and the process of adapting Everwhen: The Doomsday Vault, from book to screenplay.

21:27: Adventures in Learning Through Research and Experience Tom recounts his journey of harnessing his passion for writing and some of his favorite research rabbit holes.

30:34: Advice for Writers and His Younger Self Tom offers insights into his creative process and the importance of playful storytelling.

35:33: The Power of Hope

Links:

Order Everwhen: The Doomsday Vault,

Instagram: @thomaswheelerofficial and @simonkids

Join us for an episode that not only entertains but also sparks curiosity about the possibilities of the future. Whether you're a fan of science, storytelling, or time travel, this conversation with Thomas Wheeler is one you won't want to miss!

Transcript

00:01 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
The aha moment is when science meets imagination and out of that union comes the future, the breakthrough, the innovation, the revelation. Good grades are nice, but the aha moment changes the world. So keep dreaming Wells. This week, Everwhen comes out, and it's The Doomsday Vault and it is just an amazing book. And we are so fortunate today because we have Thomas Wheeler on the Adventures in Learning podcast. 

00:34
If you don't know who Thomas Wheeler is, you know his work. You've seen his Academy Award nominated Puss in Boots. You've seen the Lego Ninjago movie. You might have seen Empire for ABC or the Cape for NBC or, most recently, cursed. Thomas is an accomplished screenwriter, producer, author and we are so lucky to have him on today's Adventures in Learning. So welcome to the Adventures in Learning, Tom. You've got a book coming out this week and it's a pretty phenomenal book. I gobbled it up over a two-day spread and I found that I was reminded of so many books that I love, but this was completely unique and different as well. Can you tell us a little bit about the book and why you think it's special? 

01:30 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
Why I think it's special. Um, I it's, it's funny, I I tend to kind of lunge into new creative projects before you know, considering all the possible complications or whatever this. This idea um came to me in a meditation, uh, and I and I like that it sounds like, that's like I sound really kind of spiritual and it's. I'm not a I don't meditate all the time, I mean, I'm a sporadic meditator, so you know, but when I do, when I do it, I find it very fruitful and very. 

02:07
In any event, what came to me was just the words the College of Space Machines, multie Wells, came pretty quickly to me and the ending of the book and I don't know if we can give away spoilers or whatnot, but there's this idea of a time travel school issue with that. But I love the, I love ever when I think it's a better title, uh, and there's just sometimes something kind of strikes where you just say I just want to be there, I want to go to that school, and I also had. I am such a science enthusiast but I'm not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination. Um, but I and that's one of the themes of the book is really how, you know, how can imagination, how does imagination, participate in the process of science and in the discoveries of science? And it feels integral to me, you know, and I all my life was, have been. You know, I love science, I think. 

03:27
I think science is the practical road to magical solutions to things, and so, and I, and if I could play a small part in just getting a young reader or an older reader to say like I want to find out a little bit more about. Even though my you know there's lots of absurdity and wackiness going on and crazy liberties being taken on. You know, I felt like that was a great way to spend my time. I hadn't done a book in this sort of range of readership and, as I say, and I think the intro, I just was such a fan of Douglas Adams. Um, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy was a hugely impactful book and I just even just the cover. It just always felt like a great secret, like I. Oh, I gotta find out what's inside that, you know, in those pages, because it seems like such a uh, and so this was really in some ways an homage to that fandom of mine for the, you know, greatly missed Douglas Adams. 

04:33 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Absolutely. You know, and you talked about Bertie and sort of that character that connects imagination to science and, like you, I'm not a scientist but I love science and I do science education. I try to help kids find the joy in connecting to science and all the people who have gone into creating science and that idea of imagination and surrounding Birdie. With those two girls on either side you've got Zoe, who's the math genius from the future, and Millie, who is your mechanical-minded genius from the past, and I loved that trio because I felt like not only were you giving us the swing, you were giving us the friendship and what's the value of connection. Can you talk a little bit about the shaping of the three characters and are we going to see them in subsequent books? 

05:26 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
Yeah, I hope so. Yes, that's the plan. Like I said, I think Bertie came to me first because he's HG Wells, you know, as we'll discover, you know, and it's not a huge secret, but it has a lot of meaning as the book goes along, and so I liked that aspect as it related to time travel. The others, I just wanted them to have. It seems like everybody and I would like to say it's by design, but it's almost like these three characters, both they all struggle with a sense of self-worth or value, or an anxiety of of am I enough? And maybe that's something I wrestle with. I know it's something I've watched my kids wrestle with, particularly in their teen years. It's just-. 

06:15 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Yeah, it's a middle grade phenomenon. 

06:18 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
Yeah, it's ubiquitous and it's just sort of this anxiety that ties into this, and I think they're bombarded by some external forces that remind them all the time they're not enough or they should be this or they should be that. So I find also that that kind of insecurity is also like predecessor to discovery, you know, like if you're putting yourself out there and these are, these are creative kids and they're and I, I guess in some ways, um, they support each other in that way and I and I wanted characters that could, through their friendship, offer that value or that sense of support, that that reinforcement of you're worthy. And and these are great ideas you know Millie does that for Birdie when she invents in Gurgosaurus, and I just wanted to see this interaction between them. Where they were, they were learning to lean on each other and need each other and and, and then each one in each way. You know, bertie at some point is like, oh my gosh, you're like. 

07:22
You know Leonardo, you know Millie's big brother is Leonardoonardo da vinci, which is a lot to live up to heck of a thing to deal with and, and it's very funny, I, my millie da vinci, is named after my daughter, um, who's my younger one and and I watched her live in the shadow of a big brother who, you know, brings a lot of brings a lot to the table. He's a very accomplished kid, and all that and I. That resonated with me because I've seen her deal with that and so I thought there was um. I just wanted, I wanted, I like characters with a chip on their shoulder who, you know, have something to prove, and and also um with birdie, this sense of like, what am I doing here? 

08:08
I've looked back at it. I'm like, it's like me writing this book. You know me going like what am I doing here? Like what I don't. I don't really know what I'm talking, you know, but I I had so much fun doing it and just felt like what I could bring was as much as imagination as my brain could muster. I just felt that's what I owed to this idea and that's what I tried to do. 

08:31 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, and you come from the film and entertainment industry. You've written Puss in Boots, you did the Lego movie, you've got some really cool TV behind you. Did that world building sort of help you shape the world building of everyone, because I could visualize everything. And this is a complicated world you built because there are so many rules about going back and forth in time and what happens if you change one thing. What does it do to everything else? How did you build that world and how did you keep track of it all? 

09:01 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
Yeah, uh, uh, keeping track of it all was was a bit of a mess. I was, um, actually writing the animated feature version of this story at the same time, which was both a great help and an incredible pain in the butt, to be honest, because something changes here and then you go oh god, do I, you know, do I? Do I readjust this, you? Or something really good pops up. I'm like, oh, I want to use that. Or a problem arises and you're now feeling like, oh, that's not it. So there was a lot of that. In general, I think, when you're writing, usually studio executives love to just hammer you on the rules, which really takes so much fun. I mean, you're constantly answering questions like I don't like does? 

09:48
is any audience member going to care that we're answering this? It's just a note, right? And so you get a lot of notes about your world and in many cases it makes your world smaller because you're trying to accommodate all of these, whereas with this and perhaps experience led me here to just say you know what I? I'm letting this absolutely just be the bananas world it is. 

10:15
I love the idea of a school that's just barely two wheels on the road, it's just hanging on in terms of what they're putting these kids through, just hanging on in terms of what they're putting these kids through. I love the idea of balancing that sense of humor and sense of fun with some real emotion, you know, and, and trying to, you know, trying to balance those two is tricky, right, you know, it's what, what's a what constitutes a real problem and what constitutes a fun problem, and making sure that you know one is trying to strike that balance. Because I, honestly, I kind of think that's what Douglas Adams did too. You know these just lunatic rides of, you know, fun and craziness. I don't think he was too preoccupied with his, with his rules, right, but you were completely along for the ride, you were invested in his characters and and there was such a heart to what he did, um, and so I think that's was kind of critical to see our characters in their real world at first, you know, and to sort of land us with them. And as long as we had a strong sense of who they were and what they were struggling with, then they were our eyes and ears into this incredibly special place where a lot is going on. 

11:32
And you know, and during the process of writing the screenplay multiple times and I hope to continue to write in multiple times you know it's an ongoing process you do get to test some things. You get to test some things and you do get to work some things out and you go like the. You do get to test some things, you get to test some things and you do get to work some things out and you go like okay, and so I would go back to the book and and make my editor crazy like Justin, I'm just going, I'm just going back in again. You know it's just a little, and then it would turn into this massive, you know. 

12:00
But the good news is that during this process and it took, you know, to get here there's also a lot of ideas that didn't make it in, which are great and characters that I love that aren't in there yet, but there are some really fun characters from the future that, um, that I I love and love their voices I think readers will love. And so, you know, I think in a sequel you would see, you would see how, uh, the you know how, the kids, how that next year sort of tilts a little more toward the future and what that's like. This was a lot of dealing with the past and Zoe's loss and dealing with that, and so it'd be fun to kind of point the target toward the future and what are those challenges and good things headed our way. 

12:47 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
And you've got the creative canvas that each semester can take place in a different time. 

12:58 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
Yes, I don't. Yes, I don't feel bound by any. You know there's, there will be new challenges. It's a big, big canvas and, yeah, I think what I have for a next book, or I feel like I have the characters and it's sort of like what would be the best plot. There's a lot in this one. There's a lot of concepts and things that are fun and, you know, I want to make sure the next one can match that and still offer the same character, journeys and have to be still emotionally fulfilling. 

13:28 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, and I think that you've definitely got you're off to a great start. Like I said, this was such a fun read, but within it there are all these beautiful nuggets too. As you said, there's the deeper issues, there's the lighter moments and you've got some cool science Easter eggs in there. As a science enthusiast, can you let people know what they should be looking for in terms of some of those Easter eggs in there? As a science enthusiast, can you let people know what they should be looking for in terms of some of those Easter eggs? 

13:54 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
 There's an interesting encounter with Schrodinger's cat, which I'm not sure is in any way actually applicable to the actual Schrodinger's cat, but I think for those who are like oh's, these are concepts that I want to pay attention to. Um, the the haunted formula is this sort of multi-page uh wrestling match between zoe and this unsolvable theorem on this, in this uh haunted part of ever, when this place called Crono Hall, where, you know, the first time machine was created, and what I can say is there is some real mathematics happening in there, there are some real concepts happening in there. I did completely draft my son, who is the mathematician of the family I, you know that was our own wrestling match Like, ok, this is what I wanted to feel, is what I, how, I wanted? You know, how do we get to this point? And he's like you're going to solve and has to solve and has to create and bring you to a space in time. Yes, it's going to create, you know, bring you to it. So it was. 

14:58
It was really fascinating to watch. He's, he's, he's, he's a, he's an amazing brain. I can't take any credit for it whatsoever, but he's an excellent mathematics kid and so we walked through it and it was really. I think there are some concepts that you know, mathematical ideas and concepts, and famous theorems, et cetera, to bring us to this place called the Eternity Box, which happens to be an elaborate prison that Zoe discovers an important character to, you know, to the story, in those are a couple that come to mind, know to the story, and those are a couple that come to mind. There's, there was a lot of sort of fun and agony in the time paradoxes that take place. You know what is what constitutes interdimensionality versus time travel, versus versus multiple time streams, and sometimes I just have to sit back and be like, okay, you know, I whatever you know. But I believe my goal was I don't want to totally lose people here. 

16:12 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Right. 

16:13 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
I also want it to be loose and fun enough that we don't feel constrained, or I didn't want it to feel necessarily like a lecture or that we were eating too many of our vegetables. There it was. It was meant to convey the amazing possibilities ahead of us. So you know, that was always sort of the goal is let's not get so crazy or contradictory that we're losing the thread, but let's make sure that what's happening to these kids is fun and silly and adventurous. 

16:49 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, and I liked that analogy of the vegetables because I used to make cakes for my kids when they were small and you would tuck the vegetables into the cake. 

16:57 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
Sneak them in. 

16:57 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Yeah, yes, and you did a great job with that, because it doesn't stand out but it's fun to find. And then you've got sort of various historical figures who come into play. Or you sort of see a name and go, oh, I wonder if they're related to so-and-so, and maybe it'll be the spark that gets a kid to want to know more and take a rabbit hole, dive into a deeper concept too you know birdies chasing or being chased through time and we land on these various areas and some of the areas you know it was. 

17:34 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
You know, something like Millie Da Vinci. We don't really know if Leonardo had a younger sister. That might be, you know, but there were also areas where I wanted to be. You know what did it actually feel like? Or what did it? What give it little detail that honors the place and time that he arrives in, but also is a lot of fun, and he messes up some critical historical moments Pretty big pieces yeah. Poor Hannibal has to turn around in the mountain. 

18:00 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I know the tears in Hannibal's eyes. That was the one that came to mind. 

18:04 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
Yeah and so, but they're also incredible moments. I adore history and and so, yeah, if anyone's kind of like, what is that Did they? You know they crossed. You know elephants cross a thing, or how did they build the great wall? Or even I'm realizing like the introduction of the iPhone was a historical moment to you know, it was made sure to mess that up too. So, yeah, that was that. That isn't. Is you have to have that in a time travel story. It's largely a story that takes place in the school, but I felt like you might. If you've got a time scooter, if you got your own personal time machine, you need to, you need to kind of raise some. 

18:44 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
You know some get some trouble for a whirl. 

18:47 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
Got it, you got to go, you got to go do some riding. 

18:50 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So you were working on the book and you were working on the screenplay at the same time. That sounds very complicated and I'm wondering book is out January 28th. When should we expect the movie version? 

19:04 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
Well, that's a great question version. Well, that's a great question. We, uh, what I can say is we have like a really amazing team, uh, a producer, lorenzo de Bonaventura, who did the Transformers, and Mark Barati and his partner and, uh, director Scott Mosher, who did the Grinch for Illumination, and we have a great creative team. Um, we've been working with the team at Paramount, some of those folks I worked with when we were at DreamWorks on Puss in Boots and they've been great supporters. These movies take a minute. Animation takes a minute, so it would probably be a couple of years as we're getting underway. I mean, I think the earliest would be 27, probably. Where are we now? 25,? Yeah, I hope that's the case. Maybe we can get other you know other books out in the meantime. I certainly hope so. It's a really fun world to visit and, like I said, the, I was finishing the book and running a writer's room to launch these 10 episodes and that was, you know, it's stressful, but you get to kick the tires of your ideas in very sort of boots on the ground, functional way, like does this, you know, is this working, does this play? 

20:25
Because often you're writing alone in your room, you know, and it's just whatever, but you don't. But in situations like this, you're really putting them out there and getting a lot of feedback. So I think that can be helpful, as long as, as I said earlier, you you know you still like this. This, the book is its own thing and I'm going to have as much fun as possible because I think the reader will have as much fun as possible if I'm having fun. I do think that that correlates. So, while I think the feature has gone through more kind of chiseling and like making sure this makes sense and we can't do, we can't have too many ideas all the way to the end and we have to. You know, um, the book has. The book has a little bit more freedom and, and I think, um, probably joy at the moment in terms of just, you know, uh, hopefully imaginative ideas all the way through and and, uh, it stays a fun ride that's awesome. 

21:27 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So, tom, one of the questions I love to ask my um guests is tell us a little bit about your adventures in learning. How did you get to where you are today, sort of what started? Did you always want to be a writer? 

21:42 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
uh, I was an early writer. I I was a big fantasy kid. I was a big dungeons and dragons kid, comic books. I was a classic sort of stranger things 80s class, you know. Like um, raised by a single mom, my older brother and I had a lot of time on our hands. We, you know, got in a lot of trouble. I feel that you know some of those, some of those adventures know tromping through the woods, getting chased, being in trouble, like these are. These are interesting teachers you know, and for your creative life. 

22:19
So I do sometimes think about the way my kids grew up, which is very different, and they're both excellent writers in their own way. So you know, you don't have to have a crazy, you don't have to have my crazy upbringing, but I think I do draw on that all the time and I think, thank goodness for things like Dungeons and Dragons or the fantasy novels I read. I wasn't a great student. I was distracted. Things I was interested in I would pour myself into, but I don't know. I was always sort of interested in what was going on outside, but I was really interested in theater. My grades would kind of suffer, but what I would be doing on my spare time is handwriting a novel. 

23:09
I wrote a, I wrote a book when I was in seventh grade and um, but I was also hard on myself and I think, uh, you know my, my dad. I had creative family. My mother was an actress and she was also a reporter in Philadelphia news. My dad had his own children's television show for about 30 years up until about the mid 70s. Both creative people. It was always. It was a very theatrical household, very, you know, creative people. My dad was an excellent writer but struggled and, I think, judged himself and I think that passed on to me. So I had done a lot of writing as a young person, a middle schooler. 

23:52 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Yeah. 

23:52 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
And then sort of let it go because I just felt I wasn't very good. And, you know, I went into, I was going to be an actor and I was going to do this and whatever. And I in my around 20, I picked it up again. I picked it up again, the quick story. I had gone backpacking on my own back, you know, had saved up a little money and went to Europe for a couple of months on my own. I thought I was Jack Kerouac, I was going to do the whole. It was and that was definitely an adventure. 

24:22
And I kept a journal the whole time. I didn't take pictures, I just I met this person and this is what they were like, and I did this. And I was like, and on the plane ride home, after a couple of months, I fell asleep and kicked must've kicked the journal under the chair in front of me and lost it, oh no, and came home and wanted to show and I couldn't find that, the whole, that whole experience, that whole scene. And so I was devastated and I was calling the whole, that whole experience, that whole. And so I was devastated and I was calling the airport, you know, and after a few weeks they were like Tom, you know like, they knew me by name and like it's not coming back. Man, you know like, and so a few people were telling me to you got to write it down again and I was like that sounds horrible. 

25:06 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Like what I've got to recreate this. 

25:09 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
I've got to do this again and I did and it completely reawakened that spark of writing. And I have that journal you know I had it wasn't, it wasn't a novel, it's. It was a sort of journal plus kind of kind of plus kind of kind of, but it really was. I loved it and it kind of yeah, it kind of reignited that creative desire to write and I sort of went from there and you know, I I mourn a little bit not having a bigger college experience. 

25:47
I left NYU after freshman year. You know I was in a rush I'm just in a rush to get in there and and, um, so I, I, I would sort of borrow learning wherever I could and ever since, have used my research and my work to to just dive into topics that fascinate me and and learn as much as I can about something in a and in research. Is, you know, it's just you're, you're trying to get as much as I can about something in a and in research. Is, you know it's just you're, you're trying to get as much as you can as you. It's a very intense kind of learning and, um, that's how I've compensated it's. 

26:25
I don't. I don't think one should ever stop trying to learn as much as possible and be really humble about it. Um, there's, you know, there's, there's, there's, there's so much and I feel like it at. You can get a little trapped as a writer in research if you stay too long, but I found it to be a great sort of side benefit of this of a job. That's a lot of fun in the first place, but I love to be able to just learn about you know history or science, or try to grapple with things that I kind of missed out on in school Because I sort of was pointed. I was pointed in a different direction. 

26:55 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
What would you say are some of your favorite rabbit holes? You've gone down in terms of research and teaching yourself and learning. 

27:03 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
There's, wow, there's so many Well, um, well, I was able to, for example, with this netflix show curse, which was this sort of retelling of the arthurian legend through the eyes of the lady of the lake, um really was able to dive into the deep end of the pool of. You know the, the history of, you know British history and you know to visit castles. I was really living in their history and working with designers and artists from that world. And you know, in the West we sort of take for granted, like King Arthur sort of belongs to us and you know it's all sort of a Western mythology and yet they take it. King Arthur sort of belongs to us and you know it's all sort of a Western mythology and yet they take it very, that's very much theirs. And there was a lot of just wonderful detail and context to you know. Oh well, I grew up in Wales where this particular part of Merlin's legend and Merlin's cave is there legend, and Merlin's cave is there and Merlin, you know, and there's there was just all sorts of uh, really um, just just great kind of muscle tissue to the myth that I never would have um, that I never would have kind of gotten on my own and and that I think really kind of added to to to that and was, um, you know, any opportunity? 

28:26
I did a novel years ago called the Arcanum, and I love biographies. I love when I know I'm going to have a historical character to deal with. This was, this was. Everyone was slightly different because we see them in such fleeting flashes, although I did, I did a lot of HG Wells research, but for Arcanum it was really important to sort of have the voice of Sir Arthur, Conan Doyle or Houdini and these characters that form this kind of X-Files sort of group. But I love that. It's almost like you're playing a role, you're in their life, you're learning about their world and so you're just taking this great dive. But it's also like you're kind of trying on the clothes of like how am I going to play this and how? You know how do they talk and what's the cadence and what do they feel like, and you start to sort of it is a little bit like almost preparing for a performance in some ways, and then when you've kind of done enough, you, you start to feel like they're, they're, they're talking, you know you're, you're in there, and I love that feeling and I think research is really critical. 

29:33
For that, I think that effort. You know, if I go back and read I'm sure I'd be like, oh my God. You know, it's like my first book and you're like, oh, there's a lot to learn there. But I did love that research and felt that that clicked it for me in a way. I'd written a few screenplays before I started. Really young I did a lot of learning on the job Not recommended necessarily, it's stressful, boy, there's a lot. I don't know about what I'm now doing here, but yeah, that was a big learning experience and I appreciated the value of research through that book and and then subsequently had my first TV experience where you put your scripts up against actors and you start seeing your stuff performed and you really learn quickly. Then like, ok, all right, ok, say less, let's do you know, and that's that's another fantastic learning. That's a great classroom. 

30:34 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Absolutely so. You've had all of these classrooms and all of these ways to learn. If you were to distill that into something you'd want a younger person who wants to follow in your footsteps to know, or your younger self, what would you tell them? What would be some lessons you might give them? 

30:52 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
Some of the things I talk to my kids about, you know, first of all I tell them it's a little graphic, but I say like I want, you know, you got to bleed on the page a little bit and I just mean, maybe it's a friend you remember from growing up who had a really specific voice, or maybe it's you know what, what really hurt you like. Find those, find those moments in your own life where you were really feeling something and and if you can, if you can put that into a character, if you can, there's just all these little things that are going to make your voice unique. It's going to make your there's's. There's only so many genres, right, you know, there's only so many. We've seen these, this kind of story or what, but but you, everyone has something utterly unique to themselves and if you can find what those little nuggets are, and your, your, your work will have start to have a voice. It'll start to, at the very least, like. There will be a connecting, there will be something connecting us, something universal connecting us. So I do recommend that. Um. 

31:59
I, my first screenplay that I wrote with the intention of sort of like showing to people was based on a Dungeons and Dragons character I had from years before because it took away some of the. You know the pressure and the angst. It was just play. It was just play and for writers who were starting out for my son. He's loved anime, loves watching. You know he loves all these characters. He gets very invested. 

32:28
I was like write an anime, you know, write your version, your version, right, what's fun, whatever can get those gears going in a playful way, like, oh, I wish they'd done that in the thing. Well, I can do that in my thing, you know I can. Just that is, um, it is play. I'm still playing. My office has got toys and you know, game like I mean it's, I need to kind of get into this. You know there's a lot of things I didn't. You know, I have to pay a mortgage. I, you know I have things to do, but I have to. 

32:55
When I sit down to work I got to remind myself of, like, what's that? What is that play space that I need? What's the? What kind of head do I need to get into? And for me it's sort of just, you know, something that is fun and, and you know low stakes, you know anything is possible and just try to, just try to, and that, I think, opens the aperture for me. So those are, those are two places to start of. 

33:26
Just don't take it so seriously, underthink it. Go, you know, pick your favorite game, your favorite character, maybe write as your favorite character for a while, get into playing with voices. I tell my son he wants to direct, maybe something. I'm like pick up your phone and shoot a scene, you know, just like, take it all, don't take it all so seriously and don't judge yourself. I think we, I do it, we all. And don't don't judge yourself. Um, I think we, I do it, we all do it. But when you're starting out and it was hard for me to finish my first screenplay my dad had a lot of trouble finishing right his writing work and I had a big complex about that. So but I was putting a lot pressure for it to be perfect it's not going to be perfect, it's going to be. There's to be some stuff when you revise it and and and over time. 

34:11
You realize, like revision is. There are some moments of revision where I'm like, yeah, like yes, like I can't wait to, I can't wait to go in there and fix that up. It's going to be, um, that's, that's a harder process and I really think some writers just never get there, like they never quite embrace that. It feels like I got to do it all over, you know. But of course there were some scenes in Puss in Boots. I wrote and I'm not kidding, I think I wrote one of those, I think I wrote a prison scene with Puss in Boots and Kitty, like 200 times. It was just. I mean, I was not happy by the 199th time. I was like, you know, I think I'm, I think I've done as many of these as I can. I think I've it's. However, it's just part of it. If you ever want to do this professionally, you're going to do it all over a lot, a number of times and and it gets better and it's sculpting and you're just finding that fine, you're just chipping away. 

35:04 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
But it's a great answer and, as you said, at 200, you finally got there. 

35:08 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
We got there, yeah, with a little help, but yeah, it's a much different writing process. It's very surgical and there's also a team just a story team of about 20 people that you're jousting with and collaborating with. It's it's its own interesting realm. 

35:33 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So last question for today and I'm going to drop all the links to everyone in the show notes because I want you all to go out and get this book. It is so good. But my last question for today it's one I feel is so important is what brings you hope. 

35:49 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
Wow, what brings me hope? My kids bring me hope. You know, they're good people and they're not as they're hopeful, which I think is great, because I think my generation is like, oh, this is chain, this is crazy, this is stressful, this is anxiety provoking, like, oh, what they? There's some things they can kind of brush off, you know, and there's, and there's, I do believe, the future of things and but I feel like the, I feel like the future is coming at us and there are some real possibilities out there, particularly as they relate to science, that are exciting and could really um improve the quality of many people's lives. And I think that's, you know, um, I can get discouraged about politics. I can get discouraged about, you know, I can be concerned about the environment. I mean, we're in. Look at my kids, my, their friends, you know I think we're all going to be OK. 

37:18
I think they're they. They see, they see a lot of things in a healthy way. They don't take something so seriously. Take something so seriously, you know, it's um, and I guess for myself, you know, having you know a few decades behind me, I mean, you see cycles to things and and I and I think we can get very rooted to the moment because everything now is immediate and just everybody's huge crisis is our crisis immediately, and it's almost hard to separate the. But I think there tends to be a self-correcting mechanism in place and sometimes it feels more extreme than necessary. But yeah, I'm excited about the future and I think science will lead the way and I'm not apocalyptic about certain discoveries. My son works and is getting his master's in artificial intelligence and we talk about the possibilities there and there will be disruptions. There will be economic disruptions, there will be things that are changed and you don't know how that change will feel, but there's so much possibility it's going to be a really interesting. Next, you know, 30 to 50 years, I mean, I'm fascinated. 

38:30 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I don't you know, 30 to 50 years. 

38:30 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
I mean, I'm fascinated, I don't you know it might be boisterous, it might be tumultuous, there's going to, but it's going to be interesting and I think we'll see a lot of change. And I feel like for the longest time it felt like 2000 was the future, like we're here, like where are the flying cars? Right, where's the Jetsons? Where's the Jetsons? And I feel like we might be seeing the Jetsons pretty soon. You know, I mean it's going to be really it's interesting and, and you know I'm fascinated, I there, you know, we all, we, everybody gets down sometimes. My kids get anxious sometimes, but they're, I think there's, there's good people coming up to take care of things. So I feel like we can look forward to that. And those things get me home. 

39:18 - Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Agreed. Well, Tom Wheeler. Thank you so much for being on the Adventures in Learning podcast. Everwhen comes out this week and you all need to get yourselves a copy. 

39:26 - Thomas Wheeler (Guest)
Thank you, this was such a pleasure. I appreciate you having me.