The Gate, The Girl, and The Dragon A Magical Middle Grade Odyssey with author Grace Lin

The Gate, The Girl, and The Dragon is like a mug of hot tea on a snowy day. It warms your soul and sparks the imagination. The characters are memorable and Grace Lin’s lyrical storytelling and gorgeous illustrations are sure to make this an instant beloved classic for families and classrooms everywhere.

In this episode of the Adventures in Learning podcast, Grace Lin delves into the inspirations behind her new book, The Gate, The Girl, and The Dragon. From the mysterious stone spirits known as gongshi to a young lion cub named Jin, Grace's storytelling weaves ancient lore with contemporary themes of connection and community. She shares insights on creating tangible reading experiences, the role of children's literature in fostering hope and empathy, and her excitement for an upcoming book tour filled with interactive activities. Tune in for an episode that promises insight, inspiration, and a touch of magic.

Chapters with Timestamps:

0:36 Read Aloud from The Gate, The Girl, and The Dragon 

3:40 Exploring the intriguing world of Chinese gongshi 

5:59 Braiding multiple stories into parallel narratives

7:35 Planting seeds of inspiration

10:25 Themes of connection and community

13:06 The power of illustrations in crafting a tangible book experience

16:08 Summer PD Ad

17:08 The fireflies that change the landscape of night

19:40 Heroes that are more than an "est"

21:30 Join the Grace Lin book tour

23:30 Check out the Quick Culture Ideas, Downloads, and Classroom Connections for The Gate, The Girl, and The Dragon

26:12 Planting seeds of hope and joy

Links:

Pre-order The Gate, The Girl, and The Dragon

Follow Grace Lin on Instagram, Bluesky, and Facebook

Grace Lin's Official Website

Adventures in Learning Podcast Episode 13

Transcript

00:02 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So welcome to the Adventures in Learning podcast. I am so excited to welcome back somebody who has been a light for me for many, many years and who has the most beautiful book coming out. The Gate, the Girl and the Dragon is out this week and we have its author, award-winning author, grace Lynn, with us today to shed some light on it. Grace, welcome to the show. 

00:25 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Hi, thanks so much for having me. 

00:27 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So I am so excited to have you and I thought, maybe just to get this rolling, do you have a favorite passage from the Gate, the Girl and the Dragon that you would want to share with us? 

00:38 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Oh, to share with you. Okay. So there's a favorite passage, but it's not the one that I. The one that I'd like to share probably because it would probably be one would be chapter five, because I actually went through this with my daughter the other day in her book club and I said is which, if I'm going to share an excerpt from the book, what should I share? Should I share the beginning? And she's like no, no, no, that tells too much. She's like you should share one that's more mysterious, so I'll share. So this is the one she said I should share and this is the mysterious one. Okay, so chapter five. 

01:17
The sculptor stood in front of the old city gate. He didn't hear the honking or sputtering of the traffic behind him, nor did he notice the crowds of gangling teenagers or the rush of people racing by blindly as they looked down at their phones. Because he had done it. His stone seam ripper was a perfect replica. He had been able to carve every tiny detail of that cheap tool out of stone, even its sharp, delicate blade. But the satisfaction of completing that near-impossible task was long gone Now. The sculptor's eyes and his thoughts were fixed only upon the lion statues. He scanned the statues. On the left, the lioness sat with the cub under her paw. On the right, the lion sat holding the ball. Immediately, the sculptor strode to the right. The sculptor placed one hand on the lion's ball and leaned closely over it, the hood of his sweatshirt hiding his face and partially shielding his hands. 

02:18
Passerbyers, if they had noticed or cared, might have thought he was praying or asking for a blessing, but he was not. Instead, he was bringing or asking for a blessing, but he was not. Instead, he was bringing his stone seam ripper to the lion's ball and, almost to his surprise, the sharp edge of the seam ripper slid smoothly into the stone. The dragon had been right. The sculptor took a deep breath and then carefully, slowly removed the seam ripper from the ball and then carefully, slowly removed the seam ripper from the ball. As he did so, a delicate red thread, like a thin trickle of blood, drew out of the stone ball with the seam ripper. The sculptor smiled a grim smile of satisfaction. He put the seam ripper back into his pocket and, with two fingers, grasped the red thread. Then he began to pull. And that's chapter five. So that's the one my daughter thought was mysterious and would get people to be interested in reading the book. 

03:11 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, she's absolutely right that that's mysterious. I'm so grateful that I got a chance to read it before everybody else did. I thought this was such an incredible book, combining past and present. You know Chinese culture, american culture. It was just so good. Can you give? It was just so good, can you give our audience? You've sort of given us a taste of the mystery. Can you help set the stage so that they have a sense of what the book is about? 

03:40 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Yes, so I'm so, so glad to hear that you enjoyed it, because this was something new that I was trying to do by mixing ancient and contemporary, like urban legends, together. So this book is. In this book you'll meet something called gongsi are spirits, they're stone spirits, and they are born when a special stone is carved by a person, carved into a statue, and so these spirits are good spirits. So they're statue spirits and they're good spirits. 

04:21 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I know my husband watches Doctor who and there's like an evil. Yes, they're horrible. 

04:24 - Grace Lin (Guest)
It's not that these are good, good spirits, kind of like guardian evil yes, they're horrible, it's not that, it's not. These are good, good spirits, kind of like guardian angels, and their job is to watch over humans and to try as much as possible to to help them out. So that's kind of their job. But like all people who have jobs, you know, sometimes they need a break. And so when they need a break they go to their spirit world. And their spirit world is right through the gate, the big, the big, old, the big Chinese gate, the city, old city gate, the old gate of the city. And of course, when humans go through this gate, they're just, they just keep walking through the street. But when statue spirits go through this gate, when the gongsu go through this gate, they just keep walking through the street. 

05:06
But when statue spirits go through this gate, when the gongsu go through this gate, they go through their own world, their own spirit world. So this gate is kind of a portal to the spirit world of the gongsu. So that's kind of the setup of the world building. Now the story is about the lion cub Jin. He is the statue spirit of a young lion cub. So in front of the Chinese gates, there's always two lion statues, as you probably heard from my excerpt, and one of the lions holds a cub, a lion cub. And this story is about that lion cub who accidentally closes the portal between the two worlds and he traps all the gongsu inside the spirit world and he traps himself outside here in the people world and it's all about how he's got to reopen that gate and save everybody. 

05:59 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I loved it and I loved all of the different characters. You know, one of the things I've noticed about your middle grade works over the years is you're so good at having these parallel narratives that somehow weave themselves together and you're able to masterfully tell multiple stories. So you've got the story of Jin, then you've got the story of Lulu who's the girl? And then you've got the worm, and you've got the story of Lulu who's the girl, and then you've got the worm, and somehow those stories combine into one beautiful story towards the end. How do you braid your stories together like that? 

06:34 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Oh gosh, I'm so glad you, I'm so glad you liked it and I'm so glad that you find it woven together well, because that is something that I always like worry about. I hope it doesn't seem to. I hope it seems organic, like that's the whole thing, because when I write a book, it takes me a really, really, really long time to write a book, not the actual writing, but the figuring out. That takes me forever, and I don't like to start writing until I know the end. So as long as I know the end, that's that's when I start writing, because, um, a lot of things change in the middle. But as long as I know where that ending point is is uh, then I can keep going. So it's like a lighthouse that I keep writing and writing and writing towards Um, so uh. But as I'm writing, I'm always worried like, oh, as I'm going to this lighthouse, I hope it feels organic, I hope it doesn't feel forced. 

07:33
I hope everybody weaves together well, and so I'm very gratified to hear that you think it went well. 

07:35 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
You know, and I read in the back of the book you talked about planting seeds, and that the inspiration for this story came from many different seeds. I'm wondering if you could share some of those seeds with our readers, sure. 

07:47 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Yeah, so you know, I often get asked by students, usually kids, like where do you get your ideas? That's the question. 

07:54
Where do you get your ideas and I try to tell them. You know, I don't really get ideas, I kind of plant ideas, so I'll see something and it'll give me. I'm like that would be good for something someday. That would be good for something someday. So, for example, um, when my daughter was four years old, uh, we went to Chinatown and we saw the Chinatown gate and, uh, with the stone lions in front of them, and I said, oh, do you notice how the stone lions, one has a ball and one has a lion cub. And I explained to her all about it. 

08:28
And as I was explaining, I was like, huh, that would be a good story someday. And so, like, I feel like that's an idea planted, but it just sat there, you know, like I'm like I don't know what, but it's a good idea for something. And then, and then I went to China and Shanghai with and while with some, um, we, we were driving, and as we're driving on the Shanghai expressway, um, one of the expressway columns was completely different than all the others. It was uh, gilded, huge, it was uh, silver and bronze and it had all these dragons on it and I was like what is this super ornate column doing in the middle of this highway? 

09:21
And I asked all our friends, we asked the locals and we found out that there was actually this urban legend about this dragon pillar where they said that there was a dragon that was living under the ground and when they were building the highway they couldn't dig where that dragon was living until they put this dragon pillar up to appease him. And I just thought that was so amazing, such a beautiful story, and I was like that would be a good story someday and like that's another seed planted. And so it was all these seeds when I was talking earlier about, you know, old legends, new legends, real people, imaginary people, you know, like all these seeds I had planted and they all kind of grew, and they grew together and they made this book. 

10:07 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, the seeds came together in something that's really unique, and I think that kids who loved When the Mountain Meet the Moon are going to love this book, I think, and then they're going to clamor for more and want to know what happens next. 

10:22 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Good, I hope so. That would be so lovely. 

10:25 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So one of the things I noticed too about the characters is it feels like one of the big themes is about connection and community and sort of what is our role and how one action snowballs and can impact other actions. Did I pick up on the themes correctly? Is that what you were going for? 

10:44 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Definitely, definitely. You know the soul of this story, you know, only came together to me during the pandemic. So this book, like I, as I was saying earlier, I had all these ideas and all these ideas and they kind of like that would be good, that would be good, and they're kind of slowly growing, but nothing was really blooming until around the time of the pandemic as, as everyone knows, we had online learning and my daughter was in third grade at the time and what we did for online learning was that we had formed this pod where it was like three other girls and we'd all, all three girls would come to our backyard and they would all do all three girls would come to our backyard and they would all do online learning together and each family would a parent from each family would supervise the girl one day a week. So you know, so we were covered four days a week, like I would do Mondays, somebody else would do Tuesdays, and so it was like a way to really make things work. 

11:52
So one of the times that I was supervising these four girls, we were like putting up our rickety, rickety like tables with the computers and one of the tables fell over, you know, disaster ensued and all the girls were like, oh my gosh, like you did it. How could you do that? They were everybody's emotions were very high and they were all screaming at each other and I remember I was like I stood there and I like yelled over their screams. I was like it doesn't matter whose fault it is, we just have to fix the problem, and so it was kind of like that moment. That's when the flower the worm. 

12:29
Yeah, it started to really bloom and I was like, oh, oh, that's what this book is about. This book is about like it doesn't matter who. Like we're all connected, we're all stuck in this and we just have to fix the problem together. Like we can't, just like it's your fault, your fault, like that's we're, we're beyond that, we don't need that anymore, you know. So like that's why I was like oh, that's what, that's what this book is about. 

12:51 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I love it and it's so appropriate and honestly who knew that what you felt in that backyard five, six years ago would carry forward to where we are today? 

13:03 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Yeah, in a different way, but similar. 

13:06 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
But similar, sadly, you know. I want to talk a little bit more about the book. You've got some gorgeous illustrations that are with it and I've only seen little sneak peeks because they weren't in the advanced reader copy. But from what I understand, those of us who have pre-ordered are going to get a special treat. Are you able to show some of those pictures? 

13:25 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Yeah, so if you've pre-ordered, the very first printing of the book is going to have what I like to call spreadges where they spray the edges of the pages. So only the first printing. So after, when they reprint, they will not have these spreadges. So that's the first, first special treat. The second thing is but this will be in all, all, all copies of the book, even second printing is each one will have they have full color illustrations. If you've, if you have seen When the Mountain Meets the Moon, you know there are full color illustrations in that and so, similar to this, there's 10 full color illustrations like that, and and some of the chapter headers are also in full color illustration. 

14:12
And so this book, this book, I'm so, so delighted and so gratified Maybe that's the right word. I'm so thankful Maybe that's a better word Gratified sounds a little weird but thankful to my publisher for being really willing to put the production in to make this a beautiful book, introduction in to make this a beautiful book. I mean, one of the things I really wanted to do with this book was to make a really, really beautiful book, like a book that people wanted to hold, a book that people wanted to keep. You know, I feel like in this world where you know so many, and there's nothing wrong, don't? There's nothing wrong with reading a book on a Kindle, there's nothing wrong with audiobooks, nothing wrong with it, don't get me wrong. But I do think that we have kind of more of a disposable feeling to our objects and I wanted to make something that felt like oh, this is not disposable, this is something like I want to keep and treasure. 

15:08 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
It's something you want to hold on to and really lose yourself in, and I think that that's important. We need those touchstones With your process since you did both the art and the writing, did you do the illustrations after you had finished the book? Were you doing them as sort of inspiration, as you were going? How did you, how'd you do that? 

15:29 - Grace Lin (Guest)
You know, this book, this book, I did all the illustrations after, after the writing. Sometimes, sometimes I don't do that, but this book was definitely. This book was quite challenging for me. As I said, I was trying to do a lot of different things. I wanted to really and I was I wanted to make sure things weren't were. I wanted to make sure things were very organic, wanted to make sure that I could mix the ancient and the contemporary well, and so, because things kept changing and moving around, I didn't really do too many illustrations until the story. I was like okay, the story's done. So, yes, all the illustrations for this one came after the writing was done. 

16:08 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Okay, cool. Now I was thinking back. You gave your ALA speech a couple of years ago now, right, and I was trying to think did you do that before or after? We last talked on the podcast, and I think it was maybe right before I had you on the podcast. But I was rereading the speech and I was struck and I'm going to read back a quote to you from your own speech. I hope you don't mind, but this quote just struck me and I thought maybe we could talk just a little bit about it and what it means. Both with the book and with where we are today in society. We are the fireflies that can change the landscape of the night, transforming a landscape of depressing gloom into one of twinkling, magical hope. That is our legacy, because when humanity is ugly and dark, it is our lights that will remind the world that humanity can also be beautiful yeah, I think, and I feel that way about children's literature especially. 

17:07 - Grace Lin (Guest)
You know, um, I think that in that speech I talked about how, to so many people, children's literature is like blah, blah, blah, but it is it. It's to me, I feel, like children's literature is something that really shapes the future. I mean, it's, it's this. We're talking about seeds, right, like it's the seeds that we plant into our, into our future generations, of what is good and what is beautiful and what is kind and what is important. They're going to learn that from the books we share and if we can show them, humanity can be beautiful. You know, make it beautiful, you know, like it gives them those seeds that they can bloom as well. So, yeah, I still, I still very earnestly believe that and what we do, i's seeds of culture, seeds of love, compassion empathy of hope, planting seeds of science and seeds of action, seeds for the planet. 

18:24 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
We don't know what those seeds will produce. I wish I could look into a magic ball and tell you it was all going to be okay. But I do have a sense that if we don't plant those seeds, we're not giving future generations the possibilities of hope, and that's maybe why we have to. That's why we have to keep planting the seeds, I think, even when it's dark. 

18:46 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Yeah, I mean probably especially when it's dark, you know, and that's what makes it so. 

18:52 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
but it's harder when it's dark, right, it's much harder when it's dark, you know, and that's what makes it so, but it's harder when it's dark. 

18:56 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Right, it's much harder when it's dark, metaphorically and literally, it's harder to plant when it's dark, you know like so, but that doesn't, but it's, but it's still really, really important. 

19:05 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So Well, and the seeds that you plant. I mean you, you clearly planted a beautiful garden in the Gate, the Girl and the Dragon. There's so many things that I think that kids will pick up on in terms of compassion, and you know the frustrations of growing up too, of trying to take somebody else's perspective, of getting frustrated with the grownups around you. I mean all of that's very fresh and real, but it's sort of how do you develop empathy for somebody else's point of view, how do you make space for them? And I think that Jin kind of learns that throughout the course of the book. 

19:40 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Yeah, the thing that I'm very that I've tried really hard with my books, especially my original fantasy novels is what one of the words that you said was compassion. It's what one of the words that you said was compassion. You know, I think that you know there's so many books out there not just books, but media out there that show that heroes are people with the strongest muscles. Heroes are the people with the biggest powers. Heroes are the are. You know the are. 

20:12
it just shows the power they have all those ESTs at the end they're the strongest bravest, yeah, and I guess what I really am trying to do, you know, with the when the Mountain Meets the Moon series, with this one, is I want to show kids that you know a hero is just, can be, just somebody trying to do their best. A hero can just be somebody who's just trying to do their best and trying to be kind and trying to like, be a good person. You know, or be, or trying to be a better person. You know like and that's what I've been really hopeful that kids get from my work you know that, like you don't have to be the strongest, you don't have to wield a sword. You know like you don't have to rely on violence to to win. You know like, so the, the, you don't have to have a weapon. You know like your weapon can be your brain. Your weapon can be just your, your yourself, so your, your soul. You know, so our spirit. 

21:16 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
And you can be a child or a lion cub just doing your best. I think that's, yeah, I think that's super important. So you're getting ready to go on the road with this book. You've got a whole slew of author visits and you've got a book tour, which I'll make sure I include that, the links to that in our show notes. What are you expecting or hoping to see on your tour? How do you imagine that kids are going to receive this? 

21:43 - Grace Lin (Guest)
I don't know. Honestly, it's such a weird time in our world right now. I am so grateful that there seems to be a fair amount of schools that I'll be visiting, so I really look forward to be a fair amount of schools that I'll be visiting. So I really look forward to visiting the students in those schools. I don't know if people will come out or not, but I hope they do. I will do this. 

22:09
I'll say it now because I was looking at the schedule and there's a lot of the schedule is really tight where I do an overnight flight, so a red eye flight, where I get in at 5am in the morning and then I do a presentation at a school at 8am. So if I do, if you do come to one of my events and I seem a little out of it or I don't seem happy to see you, don't I am, I'm thrilled. It just might be I'm like about to collapse. So what do I foresee? I foresee myself being extremely tired, but I also foresee myself being extremely grateful for whoever shows up. I will be thrilled to see anyone, even if perhaps I don't show it at the time. 

22:50 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
And I know sometimes when you do your school visits, you teach kids how to draw. Will there be any drawing that is accompanying this book? 

22:57 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Yes, so I will be teaching everybody how to draw a Chinese lion in these school visits, I think at the presentations too. At the school visits I will also be doing a reader's theater, but not at the presentation. 

23:09 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Oh, that's so fun. And what part of the book will the Reader's Theater be testing on? 

23:15 - Grace Lin (Guest)
It will be about the part where the worm turns into a dragon.

23:20 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
 Oh, that'll be exciting the dragon and the dragon headed worm.

23:28 - Grace Lin (Guest)
I know people who haven't read the book are like I don't know what you're talking about. 

23:30 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So read the book, you'll find out. And you've also got and if people aren't following you, they should definitely follow you on Instagram and blue sky and Facebook because you've been putting out this series of quick culture ideas and they've been really fun and I know you had started that when you did Chinese menu and to help people sort of understand the myths behind the stories. So if you're not following, you should definitely follow. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the ones you've touched on so far? 

23:59 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Sure, so I've been doing. I have a series I think it's like eight or nine videos where it's just about the culture behind the book, the real, true culture behind the book. For example, I talk about the gate, because when I say gate, sometimes people don't realize I'm talking about, like a gate, the gate that you walk through through Chinatown. And I talk about how, you know, these Chinatown gates were actually conceived and built because they, because they wanted visitors to come through the gate and feel like it was a portal into another world, into a portal into an Asian fairy land. You know, and it was actually when I read that, that was actually what inspired me, like, well, why don't I make it into an actual, real portal into a fairy land? 

24:44
So I talk about the stone lions and, as I mentioned earlier, about, like one holds the ball, one holds the cup. So all the things that have inspired this book are in there. Like, oh, one holds the cup. So all the, all the things that that have inspired this book are in in there. Like, oh, talk about Chinese soccer, because Jin loves soccer. Or Zuchi, which is inspired by soccer. So there's all these, these histories and relevant cultures that you don't need to know to enjoy the book. But if you do know, I think it just makes your enjoyment of the book that much richer. 

25:18 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
And it makes the teaching of it so much easier for a classroom teacher who decides to use this as a literature circle book or a read aloud, because suddenly you're able to compare and contrast and add history and story structure and all kinds of other beautiful elements layered onto it. So I think it's a great little gift, and you have so many of those on your website in terms of free resources for educators that people should definitely check out. 

25:44 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Yay, I'm glad people use them because, like you as an author, like I make a lot of them and I'm like I hope people use them but like I never quite know. But thank you so much for telling people and I hope if you do use them, let me know. 

25:57 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
And they're great. I mean, I will tell you, when I worked for a children's museum, I used the ones you had for big mooncake, for little star. We took those out on the road and had people create the moon cups. We took those everywhere. So, yes, they're very useful. You should definitely check out her resources as a teacher. I can, I can, vouch for them. They're great.

26:17 - Grace Lin (Guest)
 Yay, 

26:18 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I have two more questions for you. The first one is not quite so serious. You talked about the gongshi at the beginning and the stone spirits. If you were to be a stone spirit, which one would you be and why

26:30 - Grace Lin (Guest)
 which one would you be, and why, of all the ones in the book?

26:33 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
 Yeah

26:34 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Well, let's see. 

26:35
If I was going to be one of the

26:36 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
or you can make up your own. It doesn't have to be in the book. 

26:37 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, because it's a statue, right, because it's a statue spirit, and I think one of the ones that I think one of the ones, I think there's one of the ones she's very, very, very um uh, only only talked about very briefly is Magoo, and she is actually the goddess of longevity and she's actually usually portrayed as this very like serene, beautiful goddess, like she gives people like this um potion of longevity, you know. But in the, in the book, I have her like she's kind of this like soccer player, like she's still beautiful, but she's really tough, like so I think I might enjoy being her. 

27:23 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I love it. And last question for today um, and it's a question I always end on, what currently brings you hope? 

27:31 - Grace Lin (Guest)
oh yeah, what currently brings me hope right now, um, it's, uh, the fact that it's spring and that the things are starting to bloom. In my garden we just had our first daffodil the other day and, uh, today, this morning, I actually we went to the garden center and I bought a whole bunch of like dirt and I like got seeds. I'm like I'm going to plant seeds today. So the fact that spring is coming, plants are, flowers are going to bloom, some flowers already are blooming here, and that gives me hope. I think, honestly. I don't know if you're a gardener, but I feel like gardening is is such an act of hope. Right, it's an act of hope. It's like because you, you plant these seeds, seeds especially like a like a tulip bulb, right, you plant it in the fall and you're just like, okay, I, I'm something's gonna happen and and it does, and that's pretty wonderful when you think about that and then you get the squirrels who move your tulip bulbs, and they show up in surprising places. 

28:27 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
That's true. 

28:28 - Grace Lin (Guest)
So it's, something happens and it's always a surprise, but sometimes it it's a beautiful surprise. It's like, oh, I don't remember planting one right by my door, but it's really nice. But the worst is when the deer come and then eat it, You're like wait a minute. 

28:42 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
But we'll keep planting those seeds of compassion and empathy and hope and joy. And in the meantime, the Gate, the Girl and the Dragon is out this week. Pre-order your copy and see Grace on the road. It was such a delight to have you on the Adventures in Learning podcast, Grace. 

28:58 - Grace Lin (Guest)
Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's always a joy.