Toucan Do It! Inspiring Young Conservationists with Hayley Rocco and John Rocco

How can a children's book spark a lifelong passion for conservation and inspire young activists to protect our planet's endangered species? Today we learn how "toucan" help endangered species. Dynamic author-illustrator duo Hayley and John Rocco discuss the power of storytelling to empower young conservationists. 

We celebrate the book birthday of Hello, I'm a Toucan, the latest offering in their Meet the Wild Things series, and learn some interesting nuggets of information about these vibrantly beaked birds. Discover how the Meet the Wild Things series (Pangolin, Axolotl, Quokka, Sloth, Toucan, and soon to be Loris) brings endangered animals into fun focus, encouraging kids to become champions of the natural world. 

Hayley and John co-founded Children's Book Creators for Conservation to be the connective tissue between young readers and the conservationists in the field. As ambassadors for Wild Tomorrow, a nonprofit focused on conservation and rewilding South Africa, Hayley and John travels the world in search of stories they can bring back and share with readers everywhere. I am excited to join them in September.

Before dedicating herself to writing for children full-time, Hayley Rocco worked as a publicist at several major publishers. John Rocco is the #1 New York Times bestselling author and illustrator of many acclaimed books for children, including Blackout, the recipient of a Caldecott Honor, and How We Got to the Moon, which received a Sibert Honor and was longlisted for the National Book Award. 

Chapters:

1:03 Toucan Do It Too! Inspiring Conservation Through Children's Books

16:51 Children's Book Creators for Conservation and Wild Tomorrow

26:28 Supporting Young Conservationists

Links:

Visit Hayley at hayleyrocco.com and follow her on Instagram @hayleyroccobooks.

Visit John at roccoart.com and follow him on Instagram @roccoart.

Learn more about Children's Book Creators for Conservation and

Transcript

00:00] John Rocco: First, talking about the series, we wanted to narrow it down. So, you know, we wanted to do animals that were not the most well known to young children. And then we said, well, what if we only focus on endangered animals? And so that we thought that was going to narrow it down a lot. Unfortunately, almost every animal on our planet is endangered. You know, as we talk about in our Wild Places book, a hundred years ago, two thirds of the planet was completely wild, right? And now today it's less than a.

[00:33] Hayley Rocco: Third and quickly, quickly going away.

[00:37] John Rocco: And the, the reason we approach these books and also our work with Wild Tomorrow, which is actively rewilding space and it's, it's just as such an important idea and hopefully that can be something that is a model for how to do it in all places.

[00:59] Ad: Wonder, curiosity, connection. Where will your adventures take you? I'm Dr. Diane, and thank you for joining me on today's episode of Adventures in Learning.

[01:13] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Welcome to the Adventures in Learning podcast. I am thrilled to introduce and author illustrator duo Hailey and John Rocco. They have so many amazing books about animals and conservation. They're also going to be my travel companions on an upcoming trip to South Africa. And you're in for a real treat. Haley and John, welcome to the show.

[01:35] Hayley Rocco: Thank you so much for having us. Diane, this is fantastic. We're happy to be here.

[01:40] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: I'm so excited to have you. You know, I've been following you all for years and you've inspired me with your deep conservation ethos. And I love series of books you've got, you've got coming out. You know, I've been following them. You've got sloths and pangolins and quokkas and axolotls. And this week there's a brand new book, and I can see it behind you, about a toucan.

[02:04] Hayley Rocco: There you go. Uh, oh, hello, Emma Toucan.

[02:10] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Can you share a little bit about this book and sort of the whole series and what motivated you to start writing these books?

[02:17] Hayley Rocco: Yeah, so. Well, I'll start with the series. So we. Through the re. I'm going to kind of backtrack a little bit. Hey. When researching for Wild Places the life of naturalist David Attenborough, I was coming across a lot of information about all these endangered animals. And I was like, a lot of these animals don't get enough coverage as far as their plights. And I wanted to connect young readers with these animals and let them have a conversation directly with the animal. I want, I want to. Our goal was really to create that connection.

[02:54] John Rocco: She wants to be a modern day Dr. Dolittle.

[02:57] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: I totally get that. This is why I like you so.

[02:59] Hayley Rocco: Much as a kid. Yeah, it's.

[03:01] John Rocco: It all kind of got inspired by a quote by Jane Goodall who said we must speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.

[03:11] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Yes.

[03:12] John Rocco: We have a portrait that my teacher Sal Catalano from college made and we have it on our. In our bedroom.

[03:21] Hayley Rocco: And so I've been looking at that for years.

[03:23] John Rocco: It's a portrait of Jane Goodall with that quote written on it.

[03:26] Hayley Rocco: But she's of course, a hero, right?

[03:28] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Yeah, absolutely.

[03:29] John Rocco: So the, the. This series is definitely, you know, a tribute to that quote and, and to that work.

[03:38] Hayley Rocco: So the hope through the series you introduce or the animals introduce themselves to the young readers. They tell fun facts about themselves. They're kind of engaging, asking questions. You find out why the animal is endangered, what people are and why they're important or interesting. But then you also find out what people are doing to help. And we offer tips on how kids can help too. And so that's, that's kind of. We wanted to give kids the, the power to feel like they can do something because everyone has a voice.

[04:12] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: And that sense of empowerment is so important. John, I can see you're flipping through the book. Do you have favorite illustrations in it? And how did you go about doing the research to sort of create these beautiful pictures?

[04:26] John Rocco: Well, one of the things we, we try to do with every one of these books is go out and actually meet the animals, hopefully in the wild. And we did that for sloth. Hayley did that for Pangolin. We did it for Axolotl and Toucan. With toucan, we did see a bunch of toucans both in Costa Rica and in Panama. But we, we actually got a lot of information from our local zoo and we were able to contact. You were able to contact the woman who actually tends to the two toucans that they.

[05:04] Hayley Rocco: The Keel billed toucans.

[05:05] John Rocco: The keel billed toucans that they actually have at the zoo. So we were able to interact with them very close behind the scenes.

[05:12] Hayley Rocco: Neat.

[05:13] John Rocco: Back where they feed and care for the animals.

[05:16] Hayley Rocco: We got to talk to the vet who works with them. But it, it's. It really informed the voice for the toucan. I was having a difficult time trying to find the toucan's voice. So when you actually meet the animals or you see them and you see their behaviors up close and personal, it really helps.

[05:33] John Rocco: Just how they really helps hop around is hysterical. How they just bounce around. I love that branch to Branch, do.

[05:40] Hayley Rocco: You have a favorite illustration? He loved illustrating this book in particular.

[05:46] John Rocco: Yeah, the toucan was fun to paint. Well, the colors I just liked. I liked painting birds in general. So it was fun to show all the different. Not all the different types, but many of the different types of toucans.

[06:01] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Oh, that's gorgeous. And we don't often think of a toucan as having different varieties because we sort of have just the stereotypical one we see in books or on tv.

[06:10] John Rocco: Right, the Fruit Loops character.

[06:12] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Yes.

[06:13] John Rocco: Or usually it's Toco toucan, which is very distinguished and one of the largest, I think, for me. I like this series because it kind of shows what's happening. You know, they're suffering from a lot of habitat loss.

[06:30] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Yeah.

[06:30] John Rocco: You can see the deforestation, also from the pet trade. So as you turn the page, the touch in a cage and that's, you know, one of the page turn tricks illustrators can do to, to make it interesting and to kind of bring the point across, I guess.

[06:52] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: No, absolutely. So you guys have done sort of a whole series of animals. What. How do you go about deciding which animal goes into the series?

[07:01] Hayley Rocco: Well, that's a fun question because the first two books were Pangolin and Sloth. Hello, I'm a pangolin. And hello, I'm a sloth. And mainly sloth, because I've always loved sloths. That was easy shoo in. But the, the pangolin, because I, I learned that they were the most trafficked animal on earth. And I was like, I don't know anything about pangolins. I mean, let alone the fact that they're the most trafficked animal on earth and kids should know about these. These, they're, they're sweet, harmless, just I, they're so adorable. They're really adorable.

[07:41] John Rocco: That's what she's getting at.

[07:42] Hayley Rocco: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I know. I'm like, how many.

[07:45] John Rocco: The way they curl up into a ball or the way they, you know, will wrap their tail around a handler who's, you know, helping them. Yeah, it's really quite beautiful. And it's their, their scales are just gorgeous. I mean, spending a month drawing pangolins and you'll, you'll appreciate the beauty and nature of just how their scales and, and then, you know, you look at a pine cone and it's like, oh, this is almost the same exact shape, almost the same texture of each of the pinecone.

[08:21] Hayley Rocco: A good craft idea for. To accompany the book, for sure.

[08:24] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Oh, I love that.

[08:26] Hayley Rocco: And decorate them.

[08:27] John Rocco: But when we were first talking about the series, we wanted to narrow it down. So, you know, we wanted to do animals that were not the most well known to young children. And then we said, well, what if we only focus on endangered animals? And so that we thought that was going to narrow it down a lot.

[08:45] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Unfortunately, that's getting bigger.

[08:48] John Rocco: Unfortunately, almost every animal on our planet is endangered. You know, as we talk about in our Wild Places book, a hundred years ago, two thirds of the planet was completely wild. Right. And now today it's less than a.

[09:04] Hayley Rocco: Third and quickly, quickly going away.

[09:08] John Rocco: And, and so, you know, these animals have less and less space to survive and thrive. And we, we just, we cement everything. Right? Yeah, so, so that's kind of the, the, the, the reason we approach these books and also our work with Wild Tomorrow, which is actively rewilding space and it's, it's just such an important idea and hopefully that can be something that is a model for how to do it in all places.

[09:43] Hayley Rocco: Absolutely.

[09:44] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Do you guys know what animals are coming next in the series? I know we've got Toucan and Loras. Are there others in the works?

[09:51] John Rocco: We have a long list of, of ones that we want to do right now. We are tackling a bunch of other projects that we have that we hope to continue.

[10:01] Hayley Rocco: Yeah, right now we're just kind of working on these other projects.

[10:07] John Rocco: We're busy on a sequel to all the books, and I'm doing a couple other books right now that have more of a social justice theme.

[10:18] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Do tell a little bit about your new projects.

[10:21] John Rocco: So I'm working on a book with the author, Greg Neary, who actually came with us on our previous trip to South Africa. We are working on a book called We Are All Apollo. And it is a, A big, significantly big book. It's a kind of a companion in a way to this book.

[10:39] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Oh, wow.

[10:40] John Rocco: And it's about how African Americans in the space program move the needle on the civil rights movement. And it's called We Are All Apollo, the Fight for Equality.

[10:53] Hayley Rocco: That's a long one.

[10:53] John Rocco: The Race for Space, the Fight for Equality, and the. Oh, geez, I can't even remember somehow. We've been working on it for almost a few years, five years.

[11:05] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Feels like there's a lot that goes into a book like that. And that's.

[11:09] John Rocco: Yeah, a lot of research, A lot of research. A lot of, A lot of interviews with the actual subjects. And it's sort of, you know, we all think of hidden figures. Well, this one goes a lot deeper and we've uncovered a lot of interesting stuff that was kind of whitewashed out of the NASA program. And the other book I'm working on is a book called the Promise of America. And it is the story of how we all came to be in this country and. And the contributions that all the different people made. Yeah, but. And. And what it. What it all means. What it means to be an American in a lot.

[11:55] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: That feels very timely and it's interesting. I was talking to my oldest daughter this morning about what's missing from our education, and a lot of it is that sense of civic understanding, of recognizing the inherent value that we all bring to the table. And this sounds like this book is really going to make a difference in terms of having that conversation.

[12:17] John Rocco: I hope so. I do. I think so.

[12:22] Hayley Rocco: It's going to be very powerful. And it's. I don't know.

[12:27] John Rocco: Here's the paint. I don't know if this will be the final cover, but this is the painting that I did for the COVID.

[12:35] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Oh, that's beautiful. And if you're listening versus watching, you can see a young person wrapped in the American flag in front of the Statue of Liberty's torch. And then there's a variety of people from all different backgrounds in the picture behind her. It's beautiful.

[12:53] John Rocco: Thank you. Yeah. The interiors are going to be done like murals.

[13:00] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Love it.

[13:01] John Rocco: Inspired by the 1930s WPA murals that were done. You know, everyone from Thomas Hart Benton to Diego Rivera did these incredible murals showing kind of the progress of America. So the style of design in the book is very much taken from that world. So that's. Yeah, that's another big project on my feet.

[13:25] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: It sounds like you've got a few big ones. How about you, Hailey?

[13:28] Hayley Rocco: I have a few that I can't quite talk about yet, but I did just get back from Montana recently where I was doing some research, and. Yeah, I'll just say that there might be some books coming out soon, hopefully, fingers crossed. About some of our American animals.

[13:45] John Rocco: A hint, Something. I'm working on the drawing board right now.

[13:49] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Nice.

[13:50] Hayley Rocco: So just a little hint, but we want to kind of shed a light on the conservation work that's happening here in the United States as well.

[13:59] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: That makes a lot of sense. And, you know, I'm looking behind you and I see wild places. And I fell in love with that book. I love. I've always loved David Attenborough, and I thought you all did a really good job of capturing him. Jane Goodall is another hero of mine, and she sort of sits side by side in that canon I've been fortunate enough to get to hear her speak a couple of times in the last year as she's been traveling for her 90th birthday and speaking out for conservation. She's a really good subject for a book. Hint, hint.

[14:30] Hayley Rocco: I know. There's so many books on her and it's.

[14:33] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: I don't think we've said enough though.

[14:35] Hayley Rocco: That's true, that's true. And, and again, it's about introducing these icons to the next generation, so.

[14:44] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: And then there are so many icons that we don't know about but deserve their place in that pantheon as well.

[14:50] Hayley Rocco: Exactly. Exactly.

[14:57] Ad: Is your school or district stuck trying to figure out how to connect science.

[15:02] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: And STEM with literacy?

[15:04] Ad: If so, reach out to Dr. Diane's Adventures in Learning. We offer full and half day workshops designed to leave your faculty excited, energized and ready to go into curriculum planning with an open mind. We use research based approaches in order to help you learn how to create and engage. You'll learn how to connect multicultural picture books to stem steam learning for engaged learners across your curriculum. Sound interesting? Reach out today. You can learn more@drdianadventures.com.

[15:43] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: So let's talk a little bit about children's book creators for Conservation. You all sort of are the founders of that. Can you talk about where that came from and why it's important?

[15:54] Hayley Rocco: Well, it started after my first trip to South Africa with Wild Tomorrow. I actually discovered Wild Tomorrow while I was doing research for hello, I'm a Pangolin. And they, they did this beautiful, beautifully written write up about pangolins and on their blog. And I was like, what is Wild Tomorrow? This seems, you know, I just finished writing Wild Places and, and it just seemed to fit a little too well with what the messaging we were going with with Wild Places and how they are actively rewilding and restoring wildlife and working with communities to do just that and also expand, expand the wild over in one of the most biodiverse hotspots.

[16:36] John Rocco: On earth and actually creating a corridor between two larger game reserves where it was once all farmland and a nature preserve.

[16:48] Hayley Rocco: I think that's already.

[16:49] John Rocco: Yeah, yeah.

[16:51] Hayley Rocco: But so I, I looked, looked at their website and they had a volunteer experience, a volunteer trip, two week trip. And it was photography and I'm, I'm also an amateur photographer, wildlife photographer. So I, I was like, this seems a little too, too good to be true. And, and so I reached out and this was right at the end of the pandemic when ports were starting to open up again. So they were they were going to actually be able to do this trip. I think that was, what, 2022?

[17:25] John Rocco: Yeah, 2022.

[17:26] Hayley Rocco: And. And John said, you gotta go, you gotta go. Let's. Let's make this happen. And so I went and I experienced all of the amazing things that they do there, including dehorning rhinos. And I. They actually got to introduce us to a pangolin that had been rescued from the wildlife trade. So I got to. I got to talk to the ecologists who were working with them, and it was. I came back from that trip so inspired. I. It had changed my life.

[17:59] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: It.

[18:00] Hayley Rocco: It actually changed my life. And I said to John, we. We have to bring back more children's book creators. There's so many stories here. It's also just. It's just such an inspiring experience. We're. We're kind of all about building community, too, if. If we can. If we can within our children's book community, because we're also siloed. So we started Children's Book Creators for Conservation, and we started asking around and saying, hey, do you guys want to go on a volunteer trip? And. And so we started our first trip in 2023, and now we're going on a second one and the fall September together with you.

[18:39] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: I'm still pinching myself that I get to join you all on this. It feels like a dream come true.

[18:46] Hayley Rocco: Well, we're so thrilled to have you.

[18:47] John Rocco: One of the goals and the missions that we talked about when we created Children's Book Creators for Conservation is to kind of be the connective tissue between the readers and the conservationists in the field. You know, what we know about conservation, we're learning as we go, but we're storytellers. And they. These conservationists have such incredible stories, but again, they're so busy with their heads to the ground, they don't have time to do PR about what it is they're doing. They're just right.

[19:19] Hayley Rocco: Yeah.

[19:20] John Rocco: So we thought, you know, if we bring more storytellers, more artists to experience this conservation, and we can get those stories out into the world and the second.

[19:31] Hayley Rocco: And expose the children to those stories.

[19:33] John Rocco: And the second part of what we would love to do, and we are working with people on that right now, is to create actual programs that schools.

[19:45] Hayley Rocco: Can use, teacher's guides, absolutely.

[19:48] John Rocco: For free, that kind of show them conservation. And this is the model. And, you know, hopefully we can expand that to other places like Montana and, And things like that, where, where we provide the content and we're working and the connections with People that actually know what they're doing when it comes to creating curriculum materials for schools.

[20:12] Hayley Rocco: Well, we're very fortunate because we are working with the dean, the associate dean of Teacher education at University of Rhode Island. She came up to us at an event and said, I want to. I want to get involved. How can. How can I help? And she's rallied eight other teacher educators, both at URI and University of Tennessee, who are. They're putting it together now, and we're going to use Wild Tomorrow as kind of the model of how they. How they're tackling those teachers guides. But we want to make them free and accessible to everyone nationwide, but also make it even, like, accessible to underserved schools and communities because, you know, curriculum's expensive and there's a lot that goes. Goes. Goes with that, I guess. So we're kind of learning and figuring. Figuring things out as we go, but we're really excited to have this team. Just.

[21:11] John Rocco: She doesn't do anything.

[21:13] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: No, absolutely not. You know, and I was thinking, one of the things I'm hoping to do is to be able to help tell those stories and to invite classrooms and kids to follow along with us for free. And so if I can help you in that curriculum piece, if I can help in capturing stories while I'm there, I am more than happy to help put together the reels and the short videos that we can use to supplement the curriculum, because that would be something we could absolutely add into that, and I would love to help with that.

[21:43] Hayley Rocco: That's. That would be incredible. That's a link we're missing, for sure. We.

[21:48] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: It's all about the storytelling, and it's helping kids to be able to follow along and to feel part of it. And, you know, when I. Whenever I've been fortunate enough to travel, whether it was going to Antarctica with my dad a couple of years ago, or even a couple. A year ago in Australia and New Zealand. That's part of what I was trying to do, was to talk to the conservation people, you know, talking to the zookeepers and the veterinarians and the scientists who are leading these expeditions, and then sharing that with kids and with families. Because I'm a kid, I want to know these things. And I'm like, if I want to know them, I guarantee there's some child out there who is asking, why or how or what can I do or can I be that?

[22:30] Hayley Rocco: Exactly. That's exactly. Exactly right. We couldn't be more on the same page there. And it's so exciting to actually see what's happening? Boots on the ground, day in and day out. And these veterinarians and these ecologists are living a really exciting life. And I don't know that kids get to see that or are as exposed to how exciting that kind of work can be, especially, you know what I mean? Like, if you're seeking adventure, it's out there, and you can, you can participate in that adventure with people who are doing good in the world. And I think that's kind of, I don't know.

[23:09] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: And we often think about, like, STEM and STEAM careers as being things in a laboratory. You know, when you think about animals, what can you do? You can be a veterinarian. So much more that you can do, and more than I, I certainly knew about when I was in school. So the more we can sort of expose kids to look at these possibilities.

[23:26] Hayley Rocco: Yeah.

[23:27] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Know, if you love animals, there's this whole mess of stuff you can do to help make a difference. And so the more we can do for that, I think, the better.

[23:35] Hayley Rocco: Exactly.

[23:35] John Rocco: Absolutely.

[23:36] Hayley Rocco: Absolutely.

[23:36] John Rocco: And I remember when I was in school, I, I, I was already in my, going into my second year of college before I realized, oh, illustration can actually be a career.

[23:49] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: And we're really glad you found that career.

[23:52] John Rocco: Didn't even think of it. I was living with an illustrator and, and I was like, wait, this is what you do? So, yeah, exposing, exposing young minds to all the different options and, and how you can, you can kind of make your own career these days if you figure out, like, what it is, if you can find that magic, you know, soup of what I love to do and figure out how can I turn this into what I do for a living. And, you know, it's like, like, you, you always, you were a kid, you wanted to be Dr. Dolittle, you wanted to talk to animals, and, and you also love children's books. And now this is like, what you're doing. And it's amazing.

[24:36] Hayley Rocco: Quite literally a dream come true, you.

[24:38] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Know, and it's interesting because I think all three of us haven't exactly followed a straight career path. It's been spiraled and all over the place. And I think that's important to recognize, too, is that you find that passion and then you see how you can use it. I mean, I gotta ask, John, what did you create at Epcot? JEFFREY R. Oh, the Disney girl in me is dying to know.

[25:04] John Rocco: So when I first started working for Walt Disney Imagineering, I think it was back in, I want to say, 1994, and have done stuff on and off for probably the next 10, 11 years. You know, there's always a rotation of things. So some of the things I worked on are probably no longer there. I don't know. I haven't been in a while.

[25:29] Hayley Rocco: Right.

[25:30] John Rocco: The end. The last time I worked for them was back in 2005 or 6. So one of the things I re. I worked on help revamping the ride that's inside the sphere.

[25:43] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Oh, yeah.

[25:45] John Rocco: I don't know what that is now, but when I worked on it last, it was kind of this, you know, create your own future.

[25:53] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Oh, interesting.

[25:54] John Rocco: And you could you. It captured video of your face and put it on this animation based on decisions that you make along the ride of, like, how you want to live.

[26:06] Hayley Rocco: I work like the Jetsons.

[26:08] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Yes.

[26:09] Hayley Rocco: I mean, I shouldn't say that.

[26:10] John Rocco: Another thing worked on was a big one was Mission Space.

[26:15] Hayley Rocco: Oh, yeah.

[26:16] John Rocco: Which had, you know, the ride and then there was like, Space Race was this thing that you could do afterwards, after you went on the ride. It was this big, like, video game thing. Basically, what I was working on mostly at Walt Disney Imagineering was anything that was projected, anything that was on a screen, anything, you know. So we had two sort of creative directors, and one was the creative director of, like, the visual space and the physical space. Like, what. What did this room look like? What does the cars that you sit in look like? And then anything on a screen or projected was something that I was overseeing. And we did a lot of different things. You know, it was an interesting job because it was so blue sky, right? You start, right, and you're sitting in a room with three or four other designers, and they say, okay, we've got this massive budget and we have this space, and this is the sponsor. What are we going to do? And you start coming up with things based on the latest technologies or what have you, and then it gets kind of dwindled down into, like, our budget got smaller and smaller. And then you figure out what it is that works, where you can move people through and have a good experience. So there's theme park design's really interesting in that way, as opposed to museum design, where someone could spend as long as they want in front of some created. And I've done both. But specifically with the theme park design, you. You need to, you know, keep the line short and keep people moving through and keep entertained. Make sure that. That, you know, two to six minutes or whatever the ride length is, is worth that half an hour that they stood in line.

[28:03] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Exactly.

[28:05] John Rocco: So, yeah, it was a Great, great gig. I enjoyed it so much. But again, you know, I. I'm the type of person that has enjoyed many different jobs, careers over. Over the course of my life, and those are greatly varied. Everything from working on a commercial shellfishing boat to, you know, being an art director on an animated feature film to making books. And I think what I love about making books is I grew up in a house filled with books. I know the importance of books. And there's something to creating that thing, that story that. That you're going to design as. As one person or two people, not including, of course, the. The publishers and the editors and the art directors. But you're not working in a team of like 300 people.

[28:58] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Right. There's that creative freedom.

[29:01] John Rocco: Yeah. There is something to be said about having your voice ring true in your final product that you can get in creating books that you can't get in those other kind of projects.

[29:15] Hayley Rocco: Yeah. You can take. You can state claim over it. It's your idea, it's your baby, and.

[29:22] John Rocco: See it to fruition.

[29:23] Hayley Rocco: It's pretty incredible to hold that concept in command. That is pretty amazing.

[29:30] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: All right, last question for today. What brings you hope?

[29:34] John Rocco: Ah, children.

[29:36] Hayley Rocco: Absolutely children.

[29:37] John Rocco: I mean, I, you know, and I'm. I'm going to speak on your behalf. She was. Recently went to Washington, D.C. to speak to our senators and congressmen about the Endangered Species act they're advocating. And she. And she reached out to some local librarians who we had just done some school visits with here in Rhode island and said, do your kids want to write letters for these congresspeople? And like, within days, she had hundreds.

[30:09] Hayley Rocco: Of letters for each congressman.

[30:13] John Rocco: And I could just withdrawings and withdrawings.

[30:16] Hayley Rocco: And I was able to hand deliver those.

[30:19] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: That's amazing, Congress people.

[30:20] Hayley Rocco: And actually, sorry, I kind of jumped over you.

[30:23] John Rocco: That's okay. It's your story. I'm just telling it.

[30:27] Hayley Rocco: But it was. It was kind of kismet because defenders had called me and said, do you want to come to Washington, D.C. for this fly in for this big rally to advocate for the Endangered Species Act? I said, absolutely. What. Whatever. What can I do? I'll be there. And so reached out to those librarians immediately, said, will your kids be interested in this? Of course, the librarians were like, absolutely. They're going to. And we had just visited, so they had endangered animals, top of mind. And the kids really just came through. But the rewarding part and the part that really gave me hope, I mean, I. I think it was the first time I really felt A lot of hope this year was when. When Senator Whitehouse, he led his speech during the press conference and he held the letters up and he said, we're doing this for the kids, for the next generation. If you care about your children, you're going to protect the Endangered Species act. Something. I mean, of course, I'm paraphrasing.

[31:31] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: No, but that's awesome. That it was just tangible and knowing.

[31:35] Hayley Rocco: That those kids will get to see that video and see the connection and that their voices were heard beyond rewarding. I can't. I can't really put that into.

[31:45] John Rocco: No, you know, and for us as, as Children's World creators, you know, these. These are the people we speak to, the kids, you know, and. And I mean, look back, I don't know when the show was on. Do you remember Flipper?

[32:00] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Yes.

[32:02] John Rocco: Do you remember how people felt about dolphins and porpoises before Flipper?

[32:07] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: I sure do.

[32:08] John Rocco: It's another fish. Who cares? Yeah, they get caught in nets or whatever. What, you know, and then that show comes out and suddenly it changes perspective, it changes people's opinions, it change, you.

[32:21] Hayley Rocco: Know, song songs, too, too.

[32:24] John Rocco: Creating change, creating awareness and trying to connect people back to nature as we've become so disconnected from it.

[32:33] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: And maybe that's part of what we're all trying to do today is to reconnect people to the wild, to nature, to those places that are becoming smaller and smaller, but are still vital to who we are as human beings.

[32:47] Hayley Rocco: And nature is calling to us all. I mean, that sounds so, so corny, but.

[32:51] Ad: But it's true.

[32:52] Hayley Rocco: When you're stressed and you have anxiety, I mean, or what we do, we go outside, we take our shoes off, we walk around on the lawn, and we just take in the trees and the birds and you don't have to.

[33:05] John Rocco: You don't have to give away all my anxiety.

[33:07] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: No, I share it, John. And there are definitely places I go and walk for exactly that reason. There's an old fallen down log tree and a nurse log that I call the whale, because that's what it looks like. And I. Whenever I'm feeling down, I go find that tree and lay on it. So I get it.

[33:26] Hayley Rocco: I love that. That's a great, great connection story. Absolutely.

[33:30] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Oh, yes. We all need that. And I'm looking forward to connecting with the two of you and to sharing adventures from Wild Tomorrow in South Africa.

[33:37] Hayley Rocco: Oh, we're so excited to have you on board. This is so much fun.

[33:41] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: It's coming. All right, well, thank you for joining us on the adventures and Learning podcast today and I will drop links into the show notes so that you can follow all of John and Haley's work.

[33:51] Hayley Rocco: Thank you. Thank you so much, Diane.

[33:55] Ad: You've been listening to the Adventures in Learning podcast with your host, Dr. Diane. If you like what you're hearing, please subscribe, download and let us know what you think. And please tell a friend. If you want the full show notes and the pictures, please go to drdian adventures.com we look forward to you joining us on our next adventure.