Journey from Heartland to Wildlife Warrior: Tim Santel's Inspiring Wildlife Conservation Career

Have you ever wondered what it takes to go from being a nature-loving Midwesterner to a pivotal figure in wildlife law enforcement? Discover how Tim Santel's unique career path led him to fight against big cat trafficking and rhino and elephant poaching as he become a champion for wildlife conservation.

Episode Summary: 

This episode is personal for me. I recently returned from a conservation trip with CBCC and Wild Tomorrow where the enormity of poaching, as well as the inspiring stories of the many, many people working to make the planet a better place had a huge impact on me. On Episode 157, we sit down with Tim Santel from Focused Conservation. Tim shares his remarkable journey from his Midwestern roots to becoming an undercover agent dedicated to combating wildlife trafficking. Through captivating stories like the adrenaline-pumping Operation Snowplow and Operation Crash, Tim offers insights into the challenges and triumphs of dismantling animal trafficking networks. 

We also discuss diverse career paths in wildlife conservation available to today's students, focusing on the power of education, storytelling, and persistence. This episode is packed with guidance for aspiring conservationists and inspires hope for the future, encouraging the next generation to follow in the footsteps of icons like Diane Fossey and Jane Goodall. 

Timestamps & Chapter Titles:

00:02:39: Tim Santel's Wildlife Conservation Origin Story

00:12:23:What does a wildlife inspector/special agent do?

00:23:34:Undercover Helping Wildlife

00:35:55:Wildlife Trafficking Fueling Impactful Conservation

00:49:45:Using Your Voice to Build Awareness, Impact, and Influence to Protect Wildlife

00:51:26:Exploring Wildlife Conservation Career Paths 

01:02:54:Inspiring Hope through Conservation with the Next Wildlife Heroes 

Links:

Focused Conservation

Wild Tomorrow

CBCC

Zululand Conservation Trust

Transcript

[00:00] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Welcome to the Adventures in Learning Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Diane Jackson Schnorr. As many of you know, I recently had the opportunity to travel to South Africa with CBCC Children's Book Creators for Conservation and Wild Tomorrow. Part of the purpose of this trip was to learn firsthand more about the many ways that different people and organizations are working together to stop poaching, to support communities and to to protect wildlife and ecosystems and to build a better tomorrow for our planet. Some of my experiences involved volunteering at a rhino orphanage. Seriously? Welcome to the Adventures in Learning Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Diane Jackson Schnorr. As many of you know, I had the opportunity to travel to South Africa last month with CBCC Children's Book Creators for Conservation and Wild Tomorrow. Part of the purpose of my trip was to learn firsthand more about the many ways different people and organizations are working together to stop poaching, to support communities, to protect wildlife and ecosystems, and to help build a better tomorrow for our planet. So some of my experiences involved volunteering at a rhino orphanage, observing and assisting with a rhino dehorning. I even got to help rub lotion on the stump of the rhino's horn, and also meeting the rangers and the canine units who are on the ground trying every day to prevent rhino poaching. I interviewed our next guest before my trip, and his career really opened my eyes to ways besides being a biologist or a veterinarian or a zoologist, that you can help protect nature. Before the trip, I didn't understand the scope of poaching and its negative impacts on species like the rhinoceros. But now I really appreciate people like Tim Santel who are wildlife crusaders for conservation. For more than 30 years, Tim worked with the US Fish and Wildlife Service's Office of Law Enforcement, leading special undercover operations to stop animal trafficking. Tim is a senior advisor now to Focused Conservation, where he tells stories and helps educate young people about the many ways that they can grow up to help protect wildlife. On this week's conversation, we explore the necessity of undercover operations. Some of it's really thrilling, as well as practical avenues for young learners with lots of different skill sets and talents to become involved in conservation careers. Thank you for joining me on this week's Adventures in Learning podcast. And if you like what you're hearing, please like share and review the podcast. We want to keep bringing you more stories. Wonder, Curiosity, Connection. Where will your adventures take you? I'm Dr. Diane and thank you for joining us. Joining me on today's episode of Adventures in Learning start just by introducing you a little bit better. Can you tell us about your adventure in learning and how you've sort of gone from growing up in the Midwest to now working for focused conservation?

[03:14] Tim Santel: Sure. It's, you know, it's a, It's a kind of a typical journey, I guess. I've had a really long and, and, and successful career working in wildlife protection, and that really kind of started at a very early age as far as my desire to, to, to do what I ended up doing. You know, I've told the story a few times, but, you know, when I was, when I was really little, in fact, the story goes, before I could even walk, my, My. My parents sort of introduced me to the outdoors. In fact, my dad was an avid outdoorsman. He loved to hunt fish and, and just be outside. And we lived in the country, and so we had, you know, we had plenty of places to, to go. And my mom, apparently we didn't have a lot of money growing up, and so we, we had to do what we, what we could. And she actually sold together a. A backpack made out of my dad's blue jeans. And they put me in, in the backpack, and he would take me out and on his. In his walks and. And adventures out into the outdoors. And that's kind of where it all began, actually. He, you know, he, he loved to show me animals and point out, you know, birds and trees and all the, all the, all the cool things. And, and so that kind of transition throughout my childhood, really, I tell people, I mean, everything we did, a lot of it had to do with the outdoors and animals. My dad was in construction and would come home, and after a long, tiring day of working, he still would sit at the kitchen table and he'd get out paper and, and, and, and ask us, well, what kind of animal you want me to draw today? And so me and my brothers would name an animal and my dad would try to draw the animal. And, and then, and then that kind of transitioned to, you know, I, I grew up in an era where there was no Internet, and so we relied heavily on reading books, encyclopedias, and I would try to get my hands on everything I could to read about animals. But I think one of the, probably the, one of the biggest influences besides my parents was the television show Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom.

[05:19] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: I remember it well.

[05:21] Tim Santel: Yeah, I mean, it, you know, Marlon Perkins and Jim Fowler. You know, for a kid like me that was growing up in the Midwest, and we, we didn't go to places because we couldn't afford to. We really relied on, I, at least I relied on that weekly television show to sort of bring me into other parts of the world. And I just thought it was absolutely cool to see, you know, animals in different parts of the world and things I never thought I would get a chance to see. But so that, that had a really profound impact on me because it just kind of brought me into that world and made me dream about it. What were the possibilities of someday doing the same thing? And, and then also, you know, I live not too far from St. Louis, and so they have the world renowned St. Louis Zoo. Of course, it's a free zoo. And so when you, when you, when you're a family looking for something to do, that was a great place for us to go to. And so we spent a lot of time at the zoo. And, and so we, you know, the combination of all those things, parents actively introducing me, the television show, and then also spending countless trips to the zoo, it just seemed inevitable that that would be a path that I would take one day. And, and certainly animals and my love for animals sort of just grew as I got older. And, you know, then when you get to high school, you gotta start thinking about, you know, preparing for college. And I, I actually, I mean, I took Latin as a language, which is kind of odd, but my reasoning for that was, well, scientific names for animals are in Latin, and I need to know what those names mean. And so that was my rationale for taking Latin in high school. So while most of my friends took Spanish or French or German or something of that nature, I was taking Latin. And so that just sort of gives you a little bit of a insight into my thinking because I thought, well, this is a path I want to go into one day. And, and so I, I took a lot of science, you know, heavy, heavy into science, but, you know, and I'm sure we'll talk about some of the, the important things that people, you know, aspiring conservationists can do to prepare themselves for a career. But it all starts in school and taking some of the right courses and getting prepared in high school. And then ultimately, if college is, is where you want to go, picking the right college and taking the right classes and making sure you're not, you know, wasting your time taking classes that may not be beneficial to you, even though they may sound cool. So, but yeah, we can, we can certainly talk.

[08:08] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Yeah, And I definitely want to circle back to that in a minute, but let's just, let's focus on your career for a second. Just so People have a sense of sort of what you've done. And then we will go absolutely back to how to prepare because I know that our, our listeners are going to be interested. So you went to college and you majored in wildlife ecology, is that correct?

[08:26] Tim Santel: Yes, that's correct.

[08:28] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: And then there you wound up with Fish and Wildlife Services.

[08:32] Tim Santel: Yeah, I, you know, I was one of the fortunate ones. And this is one of the things I, you know, I do a lot of these discussions and talks with aspiring students of all ages from elementary through college. And, and you know, one of the things I, I, I preach is I think it's really important to, to, to be curious and stay committed, you know, develop your skills, but you need to get some sort of experience. And, and that can happen either through volunteering, through internships, finding mentors to, to sort of, you know, listen to and, and, and receive information and guidance from, and so I did those things. I was, you know, I went to the University of Wisconsin in Stevens Point, which is one of the nation's best and most recognized natural resource colleges in the country. And you know, there they strongly advocate getting outside experience through volunteering and internships and so forth. And so I did that, I did that throughout my college years and, and worked for a variety of different organizations trying to gain experience. And so getting back to your, your, the point of me joining the Fish and Wildlife Service, I was one of the fortunate ones that got hired fairly quickly out of college, which doesn't always happen. But I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that I graduated from the right college with the right degree and I had quite a bit of experience already on my resume that made it attractive for the Fish and Wildlife Service to bring me on. I got hired originally as a wildlife inspector. And you know, think about the other advice I would give to, to, to people is you can't really pigeonhole yourself. You know, sometimes I, I talk to people and they're like, well, I don't really want to move or I don't want to, you know, this is the only job I really want and so forth. And, and I, I try to explain you really need to be flexible and, and sometimes you gotta make some significant sacrifices, and I certainly have. And I think some of those sacrifices obviously paid off because I had a really long and successful career. But I, you know, I look back at it now and, you know, had I made some different decisions, my path probably would have been a little different. You know, I, I, I ended up going to, you know, I grew up in the Midwest, I was a, I was a. Just a, a farm kid, not really spending much time in the big city. And I took a job in Boston, Massachusetts, which is way out of my element. And so moving from the Midwest to the east coast was something that I decided that I needed to do if this was the career I wanted to pursue. The job I took as a wildlife inspector paid nothing, basically very little. Not enough to survive in Boston. You know, true story is I got, I got. We, me and my wife got married on a Saturday. We opened up our wedding gifts on Sunday, and we loaded up the car and drove cross country on, on Monday. And so, and we went out there sight unseen. And, and it was a kind of a new adventure, but it was a sacrifice that I just thought we needed to, to take if, if I was really going to try to make a go out of this career. And so that's one thing I. Piece of advice I like to give is you gotta be flexible. Don't pigeonhole yourself and saying, I only want to work in this part of the world because it just may not be the right path for you or those opportunities may not come up. But I became a wildlife inspector, and really that was my first. It was my first real job, but it was, it really opened my eyes to the importance of wildlife protection and conservation.

[12:14] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: And what does a wildlife inspector do?

[12:17] Tim Santel: Yeah, it's a, it's, it's when the, in the Office of Law Enforcement, the branch of law enforcement for the U.S. fish and Wildlife Service, there's only, you know, there's only. At the time, there were only a handful of these positions throughout the country. But basically it's a uniformed law enforcement officer. You're stationed typically either at the border or a major port of entry. And the, the core mission of your, of your job is to interdict illegal wildlife being imported or exported into the United States or out of the United States. And when we're talking about wildlife, we're talking about, you know, species that are protected, species that are prohibited from, from entry, endangered species. And we're not talking just live animals, which I certainly saw plenty of, but we're also talking about dead animals or parts and products, everything from, you know, women's handbags and fur coats to, you know, coral jewelry and ivory bracelets. So we saw a lot of things. And I was there in Boston for almost three years. Me and my wife were. And it really exposed me, like I said, to wildlife trafficking, illegal wildlife trade. But on the, on the other part of that is it also gave me an opportunity to learn, get some experience. And I started to gain a pretty good reputation amongst my peers within the agency as far as being able to. To catch, you know, people trying to. To bring things in illegally or smuggle things out. And so. But, you know, as a young kid, as I mentioned earlier, you know, I always had these aspirations of being the next, you know, Marlon Perkins or. Or somebody that wanted to study particular species. And so even though I was working in law enforcement, I loved it. I loved doing what I was doing. I just had this sort of internal voice in my head saying, you ought to try to be that wildlife biologist, you know, that. That you've always wanted to be. And so an opportunity came up for me to. To switch paths with the Fish and Wildlife Service and leave law enforcement and become a wildlife biologist working on endangered species and wetland issues. And it also brought us back to the Midwest. You know, we were married now almost three years, and, you know, you start thinking about family and being home, close to home and all that sort of thing. And so those sort of things were. Certainly contributed. But I had an opportunity and I took it. I left law enforcement and I took a job as an endangered species biologist for the Fish and Wildlife Service. And it started doing that important job. But I gotta tell you, for me personally, it just didn't have the. I just couldn't get the adrenaline rush that I got working in law enforcement. And one of the things that I observed as a wildlife biologist was you would see things and be passionate about issues, but you really. Other than maybe writing some letters or attending some meetings or doing some presentations, I just didn't feel like I had the ability to make the immediate impact that I wanted to make and that, you know, whereas in law enforcement, you know, I see a bad guy doing bad things, and I've. As long as it's within my authority, I could take immediate action and see an impact, you know, sort of immediately. And as a biologist, I could write a letter and. And hope somebody would stop that wetland from being drained or that particular habitat from being destroyed or whatever the case may be. And. And maybe it. Maybe that letter helped, and maybe it just sat on someone's desk. And so for me and my personality, I. I wanted to be in charge of. Of. Of making those decisions and, and having sort of a. A bigger impact. And so I was only a biologist for about a year, and my peers from my former days were sort of encouraging me to come back into law enforcement. And I applied and was selected to become a special agent, a federal agent. And of course, that turned out to be my dream job. And my real life's calling was to work in wildlife law enforcement as a special agent. You know, as a special agent for the Fish and Wildlife Service. The job series is the exact same as an FBI agent or a DEA agent or ATF or Secret Service, irs. And in fact, with the exception of the FBI, all the other agencies, including the Fish and Wildlife Service, go to the same federal law enforcement academy in Brunswick, Georgia. And so, you know, I got hired and got shipped off to the academy. And it's sort of like going to boot camp in the military. I was gone for probably five or six months and away from my wife who was pregnant with our first child. So I actually missed the last, you know, five or six months of my wife's pregnancy and was at the academy. And the thing about being a Fish and Wildlife agent, you know, there are a lot of, I mean, it's just an awesome job, but it's not for everybody. There are a lot of, you know, requirements. You know, for an example, you have to be between the ages of 21 and 37. You have to be willing to carry a firearm and use it. You gotta pass a lot of rigorous tests, whether they be medical tests, psychological test, background drug test, and physical fitness. And so again, it was the real deal. It was the academy. And I've spent, like I said, about six months there not only being trained as a criminal investigator, but then also being trained in, in with the Fish and Wildlife Service as a wildlife agent. And that meant learning every, everything from, you know, identification of, you know, all the different birds and mammals and reptiles and so forth, in addition to conservation and wildlife related laws. And so you apply, you know, so when to get to back up a little bit when you're going through the academy and your classmates are, are with the IRS or with the US Marshals or with the ATF or Secret Service. You know, we're all in there together learning about law enforcement, you know, techniques, firearm use, arrest, you know, all, all the sort of things that are important in our jobs. And then once we graduated from that course, then we worked, then we went to our respective agencies and learned the specifics needed for, for that particular agency. And, and so for Fish and Wildlife, my class, I only had, There were only 10 of us in our, in our class as far as fish and wildlife agents, there were nine men and, and one woman. So it was, you know, and it certainly has changed in my 30 plus years, but when I started it was, it was a very heavily male dominated profession. And, and of course because of the job has sort of evolved as well and the requirements and the type of, type of work that the agents are doing these days. They've brought in a really diverse group of people now into the agent ranks, which is extremely beneficial. You know, whether they be people of different ethnic backgrounds, people of different, you know, we had both, a lot more women are being hired these days and so forth. And that it's because of, like I said, the, the job has sort of evolved. When I started the, the emphasis was on, on US species and we, you know, I would get, we went to our respective duty stations and, and basically worked wildlife investigations in our areas, the regions, our states and, and nationally, but it was more US species. But as, as sort of my career evolved and I believe some of the work that I've done for the Fish and Wildlife Service probably had a little influence on this transition to more of an international scope. Where now we started worrying and working international investigations, investigations involving rhinos and parrots from South America or sharks from, from the oceans. We started work thinking globally because, you know, when you're working wildlife it's not just the regional issue and a lot of times it's way bigger than that. And, and the other thing is when you're working wildlife cases, you know, you have the ability to, even though you might be working in iconic species like a tiger, you try not to forget about some of the lesser known and sort of lesser less appreciated species. But by saving a tiger and bringing attention to the importance of a tiger, maybe in the, in the jungles of, of India or Nepal, you, you raise an awareness and, and sort of a desire to protect all those species in that particular habitat. So it has a, a much larger impact than just that one iconic species. But in a long winded, roundabout way. Yeah, that's, that's how you know. And of course now I was a special agent and I kind of worked my, well my, myself up through the ranks. You know, you start off as a field agent and you get signed to a duty station. And again, things have sort of changed. Back in the day when I started, we really didn't know where we were going to get sent to. And the theory was if, well, if you grew up in the country, they wanted to send you to the city. When you grew up in the city, they wanted to send you to the country. And so a lot of that has evolved, of course. But you know, I got sent to, to the city. I went to Ann Arbor, Michigan as my first duty station and and worked there and kind of made some right out of the gate, made some really impressive investigations and sort of put my name on a radar, I guess a little bit. Because within a couple of months, me being there, I had a visit from my, my, this what we call a special agent charge for the region. And he came and visited me then, wanted to check on me and see how I was doing and my new job and, and he offered me a position at a one person duty station in the, in, in Illinois. And I thought, man, I, I've only been on for a couple months. I don't even know what yet, what I'm really doing here. But he had enough confidence in me and based on what he had seen already that he wanted me to run my own office in Illinois. And so I stayed for a couple more months and then transferred to Illinois. But then, you know, I worked myself up the ranks as a field investigator working cases, work closely with, with both state and federal counterparts, got, you know, sort of got promoted as a, as a supervisor. I actually supervised three states in the, in the Midwest in a position called the resident agent in charge. And you know, when you work for Fish and Wildlife, particularly as an agent, you have the ability to sort of carve out your own niche. You can, some people have a niche that they have an interest in, in reptiles and some people have an interest in, you know, bird species or waterfowl or, or trees or whatever. I was sort of all over the board, but. And I wasn't really sure I didn't, it kind of evolved. But in my early years I had an opportunity to work undercover. And you know, I had never had a police job before and I never worked undercover before, but it just seemed I had a real sort of knack for working undercover. And it's, that's certainly a position or being an undercover agent is not for everybody. There's a lot of added stress, not only to you, but also to your family. And there's always inherent dangers involved in that sort of part of the job. But I just loved it. I mean it was, it was, you know, I, it was, it was an adrenaline rush. I love the challenge of trying to outsmart the bad guy. And then many times and many, and then as I demonstrated with the kind of cases I ended up working throughout my career, many times undercover work was really the only way we were going to make that case. We were going to be successful in prosecuting and get in the types of evidence that's required in federal court to not only get a conviction, but also Put somebody in prison for doing bad things. And so, you know, if you think about it, a lot of times bad guys aren't, you know, you don't just meet them and they come right out and tell you all the bad stuff they're doing, right? You got to develop a relationship, you got to develop rapport, you, you got to get them to trust you and let you into their world. And, but you know, like I said, it's not for everybody. I mean, when you're in the, in that bad guy world as an undercover agent, you're exposed to a lot of stuff and you have to, you have to remind yourself that you're one of the good guys and not one of the bad guys, you know, and, and, and although you're doing some things that may appear to be bad, you're doing it in an effort to secure evidence, maybe develop intelligence. And, and so, you know, I, I, I just was really interested and, and turned out to be fairly good at working undercover. And so early in my career I worked as an undercover agent in, on, on a case called Operation Snowplow, which involved the killing of big cats for their body parts. And there was a ring, you know, a ring of bag, a bag, a bunch of group of bad guys in the Midwest that had decided or figured out that they could buy live tigers and leopards and lions and cougars and, and, and so forth and kill them in cages and then basically like a car part, part them out and sell their body parts. And by selling their body parts, they could turn a thousand dollar tiger into a $10,000. And wow. So, and you know, the thing about it is they didn't have to feed them, they didn't have to take care of them. They have to worry about nothing. And so it was sort of a, in their world, it was a lucrative way to make some money. And so myself, pretty much myself and all, and one other agent, we were a two man team. We infiltrated this group and worked them on a cover for about 18 months where we documented and were present during a number of these killings. We were present while they parted them up, cut them up. And you know, we took down that group of bad guys in, in the early 2000s and it really sort of, it did a lot of things. For one, it received worldwide attention on the, you know, the, the seedy world of, of killing cats in cages and parting them out. It was really Tiger King before Tiger King, right was, was famous. We were already doing that kind of work. And, but it also, it raised awareness. You know, there were you know, there's some legislative changes, some, some things passed as a result, but it kind of brought the term wildlife trafficking and that international flavor to light. And of course it, you know, I became known as the, you know, the tiger agent where everybody seemed to want to talk to me about that particular issue. And, but it gave me an opportunity to, to show my peers and particularly the agency that I was capable of doing that. And so that just sort of was the, the stepping stone for my career in working undercover. And I got asked to work quite a few large undercover investigations, you know, after that. And who, as it turned out, several that were probably much bigger than what Operation Snowplow was at, at its time. And so I spent a lifetime, or basically three decades of, of my career working undercover. But you know, sort of my, the pinnacle of my career really was the, probably the last decade. I got approached by our chief. He was a brand new chief. You know, every time there's an administration change, we have different personnel and, and, and you know, as we see, you know, as we recently saw things happen and change and good, bad and the ugly, I guess, and, and some of the things that happen are personnel changes and we got a new chief and what, what his philosophy was, he wanted to go around the country introducing himself and sort of get to know his troops. And so I held a meeting with my, you know, I had, you know, 20 or 30 employees working underneath me when I was the rack of, of the three states there in the Midwest. And I held a meeting and invited the chief to come speak to our group, introduce himself. And after that meeting, he approached me in a, in a private setting and said, hey, you know, I've heard a lot of great things. I've heard about your work with Operation Snowplow. Would you be interested in running a large international investigation on rhino horn trafficking? And of course, you know, he's the new chief and I want to impress him, so I'm not going to say no.

[29:50] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Right.

[29:50] Tim Santel: Even though I knew virtually nothing about rhino horn trafficking, I figured, you know, he didn't know that. So I said, yeah, I'll do it. And, and so I, I agreed to do it. And you know, the only sort of caveats I special request I made was I, you know, I was still a supervisor, I still had a lot of other responsibilities. And so I wanted to be able to sort of break away some of that and develop my own team, you know, of, of investigators and people that I wanted to, to sort of hand picked, you know, one of the benefits of being in the agency for, at that time, 20 years. You know, I, I really had my, you know, I knew, knew who some of the really good agents were that I would love to work with someday. And so that he allowed me the opportunity to bring some of those star agents into the fold. And we ended up starting at this large. Now probably the largest undercover case ever worked in fish wildlife history is, is a case called Operation Crash. Operation Crash dealt with rhino horns and elephant ivory and, and, and a few other things, but that was the primary focus. But I brought, I brought a few agents onto my, onto my team of. And we started looking into this and, you know, we could talk for weeks about all the people that we investigated in Operation Crash and all the cool investigation. I think we did 40 separate investigations. We identified over a thousand people that we might want to look at. And, and so we became really successful at, at working some of these rhino horn traffickers, not only here in the United States, but across the globe. And so, yeah, I just, you know, I've been lucky because that case really was sort of the icing on the cake for me. And it, what it did was because of the work I was doing, they. They decided to promote me to the special agent in charge of the. What we call the Special Investigations Unit. It was the undercover unit for the Fish and Wildlife Service. And at the time there, there were, there were only two agents in that unit. It was a very small unit and just really wasn't sort of doing some of the work that it historically was doing. And so they asked me to take, take that unit and grow it. And I was able to, to, to grow that team to about 10 agents working for me in what we call SIU or Special Investigations Unit. And so I did that for that, for that last decade of my career. And that was some of the most fulfilling part of my career because it brought me all over the world. We worked. You know, so now that I had this team and you know, of course I had a lot of, still had a lot of passion for what I just thought my marching orders to the group was, let's just work these kind of cases that nobody else either wants to work or can work. Let's try to catch bad guys that people are convinced we'll never catch. You know, let's get. And not just worry about the ones here in the United States. Let's go after wherever they are, in whatever country they're in, and try to work with people, our partners in those countries and, and work some of these bad guys. And so that's what we did the last 10 years of my career working those kind of cases and, and, and that included some very significant work we did in Africa and Asia and, and some other places.

[33:24] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Imagine a space where curiosity drives innovation, where empathy fuels collaboration, and where learning feels less like a task and more like an adventure. My message isn't about adding more to your plate. It's about changing how you see the plate entirely. I'm Dr. Diane Jackson Schnorr and through the power of purposeful platform, I equip leaders, educators and organizations with the tools you need to unlock creative problem solving, deepen human connection, and build resistant ecosystems of empathy and innovation. Attendees will walk away not just inspired, but empowered with immediately usable strategies to spark curiosity in teams, to lead with empathy, and to infuse learning into their everyday cultures. You'll learn how play isn't child's work. It's the secret weapon of the world's most effective leaders and change makers. This is not a feel good talk that fades by Monday morning. It's a movement, a shift in how we engage people, solve problems and lead meaningful change. My talks and workshops are shaped by decades of experience in education and a transformative message that connects across sectors. Whether your audience is corporate, educational or non profit. They'll leave ready to rethink what's possible both personally and professionally. Because when we learn and lead through play, we don't just change organizations, we change the world. Check it out@drdianadventures.com so, so my mind is spinning. Cause I've got like three questions I want to ask based on what you just said. Kids who might be listening or they're adults have probably at least touched on some of this through the works. Katherine Applegate with the one and only Ivan or Stuart Gibbs and his whole wild animals series. And what I'm sort of wondering if they're not familiar, why rhino horns to begin with? You know, what is. Talk a little bit about why that's important, why we should care about rhino horns and why we should care about elephants and kind of connected to that. I'm thinking you've seen so much cruelty in what you've done. How does that impact your development as a conservationist, as somebody who wants to protect animals.

[35:41] Tim Santel: But, but you talked about rhinos and elephants and their importance. You know, we call them, you know, iconic species or there's other terms that are used or you know, these, they're obviously they're very sexy species and, and everybody knows what a tiger is and what a rhino is and that Sort of thing. And we have a tendency to gravitate towards those animals just because they're so iconic. And I'm no different, and that's how I was as a kid as well. But you sort of realize that for an example, an elephant or a rhino or a gorilla. I'll use a gorilla as an example. I mean, people don't realize the importance of gorillas as maybe a seed spreader in that, in that forest. You know, when those animals are traversing through the jungles or the forest and they're going to the bathroom, they're actually depositing seeds and plants and things in other parts of that jungle which keep that habitat live and fresh and biodiverse, which may help reptile species and insect species and bird species. And so a lot of these big mega species are. Are play an important role in the overall health of that ecosystem. And rhinos and elephants are no different. You know, when I was asked to do the rhino horn trafficking investigation, you know, people would say, well, rhino horns, you know, what. What do they do with rhino horns? Well, the common reaction to that is, oh, well, it's a. It's an aphrodisiac or. And they use it in traditional Chinese medicine, which is true, they do. But it's not the only thing that they use these rhino horns for. One of the things that those populations. And back when I was doing crash, there was a. He was. I believe. I believe he was with the Vietnamese government, and he made a comment during an interview, I believe that went viral. But the comment basically suggested that rhino horn could cure cancer. Well, you know, and of course, most of us. And my family's no different. In fact, cancer has. Has certainly affected my family and taken some of my loved ones away. And when that, when you, when you go through that, you're. You're. You have a tendency to say, well, I'll do whatever it takes to try to solve, sure. My loved one's cancer. Yeah. And so when this guy got on there and said, hey, rhino horn can cure cancer, that just exploded virally. And the demand for rhino horn went up exponentially. And so when I started Crash was in around 2011. If you start looking at the poaching statistics in, particularly in South Africa, we start seeing a huge change and an uptick, a huge rise in poaching of. Of rhinos in Africa around 2011, 2012. And that coincided with not only the newfound wealth in some of these southeastern Asian countries, but also these comments made by this government official from Vietnam. And it kind of peaked in 2014, you know, we went from a very low number of rhinos being poached to basically hundreds and hundreds, several hundred rhinos being poached annually there in South Africa, which obviously had a detrimental effect on their populations. But in 2014 is when we took down Operation Crash. We. We started making arrest all over the country. We made arrests in certain parts of the world. I started extraditing bad guys from other countries into the United States and prosecuting them and putting them in prison. And so we started getting a lot of media attention, worldwide attention, on the issue of. Of rhino horn trafficking. You know, at the time, President Obama and. And even President Trump integrated wildlife trafficking into some of the presidential priorities. There were different groups formed, legislation passed. And so there were all these things happening now that we sort of let the cat out of the bag about what was going on with rhinos. And it really had an impact around the world. And we start seeing. And I, you know, who knows? I mean, I don't know if I can take. If my team can take credit for it or not. But I think coincidentally, we start seeing the numbers drop after 2014 and continue to drop because of the pressures that were and the awareness and the education and the fact we're putting bad guys in jail and we're creating a deterrence. And so when you add all those things up, we had the ability to hopefully save the rhino being a little more pessimistic, at least slow down the demise of its population. But. But yeah, that the rhinos are. Are super important for a variety of reasons.

[41:00] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Right. And I think that point you raised about awareness is really important as well, that we can use our voice for good or for ill. And so, you know, I know that there are lots of folks who aspire to be YouTubers or TikTokers, and how you use your voice matters and what you speak out about matters. And I think it's also important to note here that it's important to do your research and be sure that what you're saying is accurate. And so I think all of that goes into playing, if that's one way that you choose to use your voice. But certainly even a kid can use their voice to protect a rhinoceros and speak out about the importance of the rhinoceros or the penguin or other species. So I want to kind of wrap back around to what you said at the very beginning. There are so many ways that you can take a love for animals and turn that into a career. And often we think about, you know, being a zookeeper or A veterinarian, we think about now, being a YouTuber or an Instagrammer talker. You've shown us a whole nother career of protecting and enforcing the law to protect them. If somebody has an interest in studying animals, in being part of a community that protects animals, what kinds of things should they be doing now to prepare themselves for that kind of career?

[42:20] Tim Santel: Yeah, I mean, I, great, great question. And, and I agree with the point you made. I think there are a lot of options. You know, not everybody. You know, there's the jobs that we would expect. You know, wildlife biologist, fisheries biologist. Of course, in those disciplines you can even be more concentrated. You know, you could be a primatologist and study, you know, the great apes, or you can be a work study birds or be a shark expert. You can work in law enforcement like I did, either as a, as a special agent, as a wildlife inspector or as a, as a park ranger, work as a, as a conservation officer on a, on a wildlife refuge, other roles or, you know, environmental education. You could be someone working at a nature center or speaking at a school or, you know, doing something of that. But then there's these things that people maybe not even thinking about forensics. I mean, maybe your specialty is, maybe you love chemistry. And, and how can you apply chemistry to, to wildlife? Well, we have, in the Fish and Wildling Service, actually it started almost the exact same month that I started my career. We have the, the, the world's first and maybe only wildlife forensics lab. It's an, it's the National Fish and Wildlife Forensics Lab. It's in Ashland, Oregon. And it's a real Scotland Yard FBI type crime lab dedicated to wildlife crime. And so, you know, chemists are there, geneticists are there doing DNA work, morphologists are there doing, you know, anatomy, looking at, you know, if I sent, if I have a case and I, I make an arrest and I, I, I pull a feather off of a guy's shirt and I want to know what kind of feather that is. I could send it to the lab and, and those experts could tell me that came from a, from a toucan out of, you know, Panama or something, you know, and, and, and so there are those kinds of positions as well that don't necessarily have the traditional wildlife requirements or background to it. It could be, you know, fingerprints, ballistics. So those things are, that's a, that's always something to think about. And if you have an sort of a expertise in those fields that also allows you work as a crime scene investigator for maybe A fish or wildlife type organization. But then there's other things I think of, I think of wildlife photographers, wildlife filmmakers, wildlife journalists, people that tell the story. They play an important role in protecting animals. Also maybe a museum curator or maybe you make dioramas or maybe you make displays. Maybe you work at, at Disney or SeaWorld or you work at, at an aquarium, a nationally recognized aquarium or someplace. So you could use your love for wildlife in working in design, in how to design a, you know, a scene. How do you, and that could parlay into maybe art, you know, painting the background for these kind of displays and so forth. So there's a, and then, you know, even blue collar, I mean, heavy equipment operators are on our refuges. You know, we build wetlands. We, you know, you, you need, you need guys driving bulldozers and, and tractors to build those wetlands. Maybe you want to work in forestry and work, you know, cutting down, you know, the forest and you know, logging and those sorts of things so that you can, you know, work on habitats and, and, and help selectively remove trees and those sorts of things from different habitats. And so yeah, I mean, of course, again, the traditional, you know, wildlife veterinarian, wildlife biologist, park ranger, that's all true, but there are a lot of other things where you don't necessarily have to have those skills. But I will say if you're going to, if you're going to follow a path like I did, the traditional sort of wildlife biology biologist type of a route to go, you want to, you, you want to be thinking about science. I think science is really important. All you, you know, and, and not just, you know, biology, but also, you know, everything from anatomy, physiology, chemistry and then all the other, all the ologies, as I like to say, the ichthyologies and the learning how to fish, learning about, you know, mammalogy and, and learning about birds and, and all those sort of things are if you, if you try to immerse yourself in some of those, that certainly will make you a little bit more well rounded and not so, you know, pigeonholed into maybe one particular career but picking the right college. You know, I've given advice and I think one of the coolest things for me, particularly at my age now and as I look back is I, I, I gave a lot of talks to high prospective elementary, high school and even sometimes in college, but seeing some of those kids or students that I spoke with pursue their dreams and got their wildlife degrees and they're in the field working and doing all those things and I, it's really Gratifying for me to see them sort of follow some of the advice I gave and, and, and, and follow the, the, the sort of, the same path that I did. I mentioned earlier when you, when you pick a college, you want to, you want to pick a college not for the right reasons, you know, and it may mean sacrifice. You know, I went out of state. I, you know, I had to pay out of state tuition. You know, of course not everybody has the ability to do that, you know, but you know, I took out all, did all the traditional taking out all the loans I could take out and did everything I had. I worked while I went to school to help pay for school. And so, but I knew I, it was important to go to the right school. And that for me at the time was the University of Wisconsin. There are a number of colleges out there that offer, you know, degrees in the, in natural resources. I would recommend going to college that offers you the opportunity to be well rounded and that what I mean by that is not just a quote, environmental degree, but a degree that also has concentrations in forestry, soils, water and wildlife. When you, when you take courses and you learn about all those disciplines, it certainly makes you not only more well rounded, but it also makes you more attractive in the future when you're trying to find a job. And then the sort of last thing would be, as I mentioned earlier, internships and volunteering and gain experience somehow, some way. And that goes back to sacrifice. You know, I had opportunities to work summer jobs or do things where I could have got paid probably some pretty good money working construction for my dad or whatever the case may be. But I chose to do basically I. For unpaid. But I did internships and volunteering for a variety of different agencies, organizations in wildlife related positions. And it meant being away from home for the summer. It meant, you know, living in a room in a, in a, in the back of a house of somebody in the, you know, all those things contributed to where I am today. And again, it goes back to, if I'd made different decisions, maybe I wouldn't have had the success that I had. But I think it's really important because you, you develop networks, you develop. Maybe you decided that's, you know what, this isn't really what I thought it was going to be and kind of like me with being the wildlife biology thing. And so it gives you that sort of an opportunity to. Well, but it really. Here, here's, here's probably the biggest piece of advice I give kids is imagine you're applying for a job and you all have a degree in wildlife biology, you all have a 3.6 or better GPA. Y' all went to a decent 4 year college and there's one opening and there's a hundred of you applied for that job. What's going to make you stand out above the other 99? And the reason I say is because I part of my role with Fish and Wildlife over the three decades was I was on a variety of hiring panels. I've looked at thousands and thousands of resumes and applications over my time. I've hired dozens and dozens of people to work for me. So I knew what I was looking for and I knew what they looked for. So when you're applying for jobs, what's, why would I look at you instead of one of the other 99? And so you want to put yourself in a position where you're going to stand out. And maybe that means you did some, some summer interning or volunteering or you could put those certain buzzwords on your resume or application. So those are all things to think about when you're trying to prepare yourself for a career like mine in conservation.

[51:34] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Well, and it sounds like it sort of starts with that sense of wonder and curiosity in childhood. What gives you passion? What are you deeply curious about? What do you want to learn more about? And then from there, taking those opportunities to build the connections, to play a little bit. You know, some of the whole idea of doing the internships, especially if you do them younger, is you're getting a chance to try things out. You're trying out different roles, you're narrowing in on what is it that fuels me and that I'm good at and that I can make a difference. And so, you know, as you said, there's a wide range of ways you can make a difference in helping, helping animals, helping the environment. And so figuring out where your skill set fits and then figuring out, you know, how do I get the education, the experiences to make me stand out. So I think that gives us a lot of hope in terms of how you can apply your skills in a way that can make a difference. So the last question I want to ask you today is you've seen so much in your, in your career, what currently brings you hope in the world of conservation?

[52:42] Tim Santel: I people, you know, I see a lot of people that have a passion like I do because I, you know, I see a lot of people like myself around the world. I have a, a lot of connections and network with a lot of people that are doing some really cool things with animals. And trying to protect nature. And I think for me it's the kids, the younger generation, they seem to have, they have an opportunity. I mean, they don't, probably don't realize it and understand it, but they have opportunities to carry their love and passion for the outdoors and natural resources and do these sort of things. They're so inquisitive and they can really make a difference if they, you know, put their minds to it and, and don't give up. And so, you know, that's, that's sort of the, what gives me hope is I, I see the kids still. I see myself in a lot of, you know, I, I just spoke to last week, I spoke to a fifth grade class there in New York City and the questions they asked me were just mind boggling. That's way beyond my, my abilities and fifth grade. And so that gives me hope. I mean I'm like, these kids are smart. They're, they, they get it. Of course, you know, I didn't have the Internet and I couldn't learn many of the things that they, they know a lot more than I ever did at that age. And, and I'm sure that has something to do with it, but watching those kids get excited about gorillas in the Congo.

[54:14] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Right.

[54:15] Tim Santel: It's just, yeah, that, why not be hopeful? I mean, to me that's, that's cool. And then I have grandkids now and you know, I can't wait to, to do with my grandkids, you know, what my, my dad did with me and I did with my kids, you know, take them out and, and I can guarantee you my grandkids are going to know all kinds of things about wildlife and animals and, and I'm going to instill everything my, my mentors instilled in me. I'm going to instill upon them. And so I, yeah, I have a lot of hope. I mean kids are awesome and as long as they carry that passion and don't give up and you know, they're not going to win all the time. Believe me, I've had my share of losses and I don't always catch the bad guys either. Sometimes the bad guys get away, but that doesn't mean you throw up your hands and walk away. You just keep on going. So I have a lot of hope for the kids.

[55:09] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: I love that. And I'm going to be traveling to South Africa later this fall fall as part of the Children's Book Creators for Conservation, working with Wild Tomorrow. And so one of the things I'm excited about is we're actually working with preventing rhino poaching and working with the orphanages for rhinos. But they're helping to build habitat and connect the national parks by working with locals to buy up land and to create job opportunities. And so one of the things I'm excited to do is to share my travels with kids and sort of let them see it through, through my eyes as I'm going. So if they don't get a chance to travel themselves, they'll have a chance to do it with us.

[55:47] Tim Santel: Yeah, I believe me, I, I, My first trip to overseas was in the year 2000, and I led, I created a curriculum at the International Law Enforcement Academy there in Botswana on wildlife trafficking, wildlife crime, and myself and a couple others went over there, and I was the team leader on that particular training exercise. And that was the first time I interacted and met my counterparts from across Africa. And it really opens your eyes when you travel to those places, to a variety of things. For one, I love, I love all those people in, whether they're in Africa or I've been to, you know, Vietnam, Nepal, all these places I've been to, there's this. What I always reminded it of is we're all the same. You know, when I'm sitting around having a meal or having a drink with somebody in another country and you start talking about stuff, it takes no time at all to realize, man, they're just like me. You know, they got the same problems, the same family issues, same concerns about their kids, and same passion about wildlife. Unfortunately, in some countries, they're not as blessed as we are here in the, in the United States with, with support and funding and training and all the things. And so they, but that's kind of the cool part is in spite of the fact that they don't have a fraction of the stuff that we do, they still get up every morning and they go out there and they risk their lives like I did and my counterparts did, to save animals. You know, this is a dangerous job. And there have been a number of us that have lost our lives doing what we do. And these guys do it for little pay, a little recognition, a little of everything, but they do it. And when you talk to them, they're so passionate about these animals, like rhinos and such. And so when you go out there, you gotta, I, I have a belief that you probably have that same sense that these people. And the other factor is they're so appreciative of us and the help that we give them and helping them save their Animals. And so, yeah, I wish, I wish I could come along because that, that would be a cool trip. I love traveling over there and I've been all, all over, over there and, and when you get a chance and that, you know, getting it back to our original opening of this, you know, I watched Marlon Perkins and, and Jim Fowler, you know, wrestle crocodiles and, and chase hyenas and right. And last little, you know, wild dogs and, and now I'm sitting in, you know, you know, Botswana or, or, or Zimbabwe or Kenya or Uganda and, and I'm seeing these animals myself. And here's some kid from the middle of nowhere in the middle of the United States. I grew up not with a lot of money and didn't have access to the Internet or things, but here I am now and I'm seeing these things in my own eyes and I'm experiencing myself. And so that should give the other kids, you know, it doesn't matter where you're from and what your circumstances are, if you try hard enough and you do the right things, you too can be sitting in the, you know, I was, I sat in Chitwa national park in Nepal and I saw the one horned rhino. You know, I saw a sloth bear. You know, when you see those things, you're like, okay, this is, this is kind of what I always dreamt about. And who would have thought those dreams would have necessarily come true? But they did.

[59:33] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: And that's a great reminder that in spite of everything, the world is a beautiful place.

[59:38] Tim Santel: It is. And it's got some beautiful people. It does. And really good people. It's got, it's got its handful of bad guys and those are the ones I'm going to continue to try to chase.

[59:46] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Well, thank you for chasing the bad guys. Tim Santel. It's been a delight to talk to you and I will drop contact information in the show notes if people want to follow the organization you're with right now.

[59:57] Tim Santel: Absolutely. And I appreciate your interest and, you know, I look forward to maybe, maybe, you know, some kid that watches this is going to be the next Dian Fosse or Jane Goodall or David Attenborough, you know, someone else.

[01:00:13] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: And we need those folks.

[01:00:14] Tim Santel: Yes, they're out there. We just gotta, we gotta, you know, let them, let em do their thing and instill that, you know, as long as they continue doing their thing, hopefully we can find another wildlife hero.

[01:00:27] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Great. Well, thank you for being one of our wildlife heroes.

[01:00:31] Tim Santel: Well, thank you and I appreciate it.

[01:00:33] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: You've been listening to the adventures in Learning podcast with your host, Dr. Diane. If you like what you're hearing, please subscribe, download and let us know what you think. And please tell a friend. If you want the full show notes and the pictures, please go to drdianadventures. Com. We look forward to you joining us on our next adventure.