Let Them Play: Rae Pica on Joyful Learning and Reclaiming Early Childhood

What if the most powerful thing we could give young children is time to play?

Early childhood expert Rae Pica joins Dr. Diane for a candid conversation about why play, movement, and joy are essentials, not extras -- and how rushing children into academics is doing real harm.

🎧 Episode Summary

In this episode of the Adventures in Learning podcast, Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor welcomes author, keynote speaker, and longtime advocate for developmentally appropriate early childhood education Rae Pica.

Together, they explore what’s gone wrong in early childhood education—from scripted teaching and excessive seat time to the loss of play—and what the research actually tells us about how young children learn. Rae explains why play builds problem-solving, empathy, language, and executive function, how parents can become powerful allies, and why small acts of advocacy can help educators reclaim joy and reduce burnout.

This is a hopeful, practical conversation for educators, families, and anyone who believes childhood should be honored, not hurried.

⏱️ Highlights & Chapters

• 00:00 — Meet Rae Pica + why early childhood matters
• 02:22 — What’s gone wrong: rushed academics & ignored research
• 07:01 — Why play is “everything” to young children
• 10:32 — What block play teaches (SEL, STEM, critical thinking)
• 16:14 — Why movement fuels the brain
• 19:07 — Rae’s vision of a joyful early childhood classroom
• 25:16 — Research on play, joy, and how the brain learns
• 38:07 — Rae’s magic wand: follow child development
• 39:38 — Advocacy, burnout, and teacher empowerment
• 43:37 — Hope: signs the tide is turning

🔗 Links & Resources

• Rae Pica's free resources
• Rae Pica's online courses
• Rae Pica's books
• Dr Diane's 365 Day Picture Book Read Aloud Calendar

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Adventures in Learning Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Diane, and I am so excited to welcome our next guest. Um, you know that early childhood is something that's very near and dear to my heart, and Ray Pika is a tireless advocate for the right of families and children and teachers to play and learn with joy and wonder. Ray has consulted with everybody from Sesame Street to Blues Blues to Head Start, has written more than 22 books, and is just a beautiful presence in the early childhood world. Wonder, Curiosity, Connection. Where will your adventures take you? I'm Dr. Diane, and thank you for joining me on today's episode of Adventures in Learning. Ray, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Thank you, Diane. What a lovely introduction. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

I am so excited to have you here. You bring such a wealth of knowledge. I think I want to just start by asking you over the space of time that you have been in this field as a warrior for children, what have you seen change?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Too much. Too much of it has been going the wrong direction. I mean, not to start off on a negative note.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

You know what? Let's start negative and go high. What's going on that we need to be working on?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Well, I mean, as you know, children are being rushed into things for which they're not developmentally ready, they're spending far too much time sitting, or we're ignoring the research about how young children and the brain actually learn. You know, I mean, uh, Dr. Peter Gray talks a lot about the correlation between the loss of play in their lives and the increase in anxiety and depression among children. And this shouldn't be happening, you know. Teachers on their end, they're being required to teach by script. There, you know, once upon a time, early childhood was sort of left alone. We weren't taken seriously. I'm beginning to think that was a good thing because now everybody's got their fingers and, you know, the policymakers are all making decisions about stuff about which they know nothing. So yeah, a lot has changed. A lot has changed.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

And I know I came from the time and place that I now realize it's sort of on that threshold between the two eras. Okay. Um, because when I ran my preschool and my preschool is still running, um, they're celebrating their 20th anniversary this year. I'm not with them any longer, but I'm so proud of them. Yes. But when we started, we started on the notion of learning through play. And we were able to still teach literacy and mathematical reasoning and scientific thought. All of that happened by read alouds, through play, and through experiential education. And what I see now as a professor is so many of my students are being subjected to these curriculum that are lockstep and are basically requiring them to teach by script. And nobody teaches, children don't learn that way. You learn, you lose the teachable moments. And we've sort of lost touch with the idea of the teacher being the guide on the side, the one who's observing and the expert in what the children are learning. Exactly. Able to translate that into the next step. So, how do we fix this problem?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Oh, gee, just start off with that tough question. How do we fix this problem? We have to keep educating people. I think that it's important that we reach parents because they're getting so much misinformation. They have all, it seems, adopted the idea that earlier is better, you know, and we have to rush the children into reading, we have to rush them into writing. It's it's just it's it's a myth that earlier is better. It's actually doing way more harm than good. And play is seen as, you know, this four-letter word, play is seen as frivolous and wasted time. All of a sudden, children are expected, little ones are expected to be productive, you know, and and achieving. And those are not two words that we should be using with with young children. So we have to help parents understand how young children really learn. And maybe, although they keep getting younger and younger, remember what it was like when they were that age, and and playing was how they absorbed so much information. We have to let them know that play and movement and and experiential learning, that is, those are the vehicles through which nature intended young children to learn. And, you know, we could guilt trip them a little bit too, because we have to remind them that that in the over the course of a lifespan, this much of it is dedicated to early childhood. And we have to give them the opportunity to be young children, you know, to experience the joy of that. You talked about your students being required to teach by script. Where is the joy in that? You know, you're not going to see a child's eyes light up over a worksheet. I'm sorry, you're just not. And the teacher is not going to be enthusiastic about going into work every day, you know, is not going to be inspired and motivated. It's, you know, I worry a lot about what the young college students are learning these days because I don't think there are many courses on play anymore. Judging by the dwindling royalties of my textbook on movement and music, they're not, you know, there are no courses on movement and music anymore either. So yeah, what what are they learning?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

So maybe let's start with that. If we could craft a way to help educators, families, policymakers understand the importance of play, what do we start with? Let's start by defining why play is important and sort of the benefits of it. Because I think it goes, it starts in early childhood, certainly, but it carries into the grown-up world as well. It's true.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

It's true. Last week, if you had been interviewing me, I would have been much more energetic because I had been to musical theater the night before. I got to see Phantom of the Opera, which, you know, and I just just the experience of of of you know experiencing the arts had me on a high for the whole week. So you're absolutely, you know, right about uh adults needing it as well. How do we reach them? I don't know. Again, I'm gonna start with the parents because they're voters. And once they understand the importance of play, once they understand that this is how their children were meant to learn and that there's far more benefit to it, I guess we have to focus on the benefits of it. I mean, it's how young children express their emotions and and and you know, get out any fears and concerns. It's how they learn to to cooperate and collaborate and communicate. It's it's how they rehearse for adulthood, you know, they it it's everything. It's everything to young children. And if we can help parents understand that, and the reason I say we have to start with them is because they in large part pushed for preschools to go academic, right? Because they came to believe, because they're getting all this misinformation that earlier is better. And so they, you know, the d demanded uh, you know, they're demanding reading at two years old and things like that. So if they could create that change, and they did, a lot of early childhood environments lost play as a result of that. If they can create that change, they can swing it back the other way. We just have to convince them of the necessity. How we reach them, I don't know, but I can say that everyone in your listening audience who works with children is in the perfect position to do that. Whether it's, you know, with newsletters, videos. You know, in my my my new book, Why Play, I talk about Mike Hubert tells the story of bringing out the wrestling mats and filming it and sending that to parents because you know, rough and tumble play is one of the the scariest things for adults. He sent home these videos, and I mean there are all kinds of apps now, right? It make it so easy to communicate with parents. And they saw the joy the children were experiencing, and they were sold. So it could be as easy as that, you know, and and then maybe helping them see, you know, if the children are in the dramatic play area or playing with blocks, they can explain. This is physics, this is, you know, this is the science of balance and and all of the things, gravity, you know, all of those things that children are just absorbing through play.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

And I think that you have to be able to understand all of the various connections that are going on. You know, we talk about play, and maybe that's something we need to define for our audience in terms of what play actually is. But, you know, I think about children playing at the block center, for example. You've got collaboration, you've got those social emotional skills because they're having to learn to give and take, they're having to learn impulse control, not to knock over their neighbor's tower. They're learning cause and effect. They're learning if I push this over, this falls down. But they're also learning social emotional cause and effect. If I take your block, you're going to be unhappy with me and not want to play. And we're going to have to figure this out. Yeah. It's conflict resolution, communication. So you've got communication, you've got critical thinking. You know, you could have, and one of the things I love to do with a block center is post pictures of different architects, diverse architects from around the world with their creations and put those up for inspiration because, and then you put out the supplies and you allow the kids to play. They're learning about shape, they're learning about spatial awareness, they're doing some problem solving and some planning. You're building those real-world connections because you're teaching them about a diverse world. And then you can connect it to various stories that you're reading as well. You know, I tend to do that for me in conjunction with the three pigs, because the whole idea of construction is a natural, they're they're naturally dovetailed. But, you know, and that's just one example. It happens daily in so many ways. And maybe we don't take enough time to document all of the things that our kids are learning in those moments. And that might be one of the ways that we show people is you're not going to get everything, but maybe you pick one of the things that you're focused on. Yes. And just follow your kids through a day or a week and spell that out for your families.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Yeah, exactly. I mean, you just listed so many things. My head is spinning. I love it. It's wonderful. And I love the idea of putting up the photos, the pictures of architects. No one's ever said that before. That's incredible. So you're just linking so many things. And yes, the three little pigs, absolutely. It it has so, so much to offer. And what it's just so sad that so many centers are have been required, particularly those in public schools, you know, the preschools and the kindergartens public, to do away with the block center. I I always say that it's it's easier to imagine that the blinking lights and the bright colors and the fast-moving bits and bytes and whatever of digital devices, you know, offer more than something as old-fashioned as blocks. But I'll bet you couldn't list as many things with a digital device as you just did for the blocks.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

You really can't. And, you know, I know that that's another conversation that we need to be having about intentionality. And what is the intentionality of tech? I'm not saying never use it because there are certainly reasons to use it. Andrew Osborne was my reason to use it. He knows I'm telling this story. He's now 20, but he's the one who was the kid with all the questions. And so he would ask me things like, you know, how many bones are in a giraffe's neck? That was the question that broke me. And that that the next day I did have a smartphone, but my answer to him always was, let's find out together. And so even when I had a smartphone present, it was a let's look together, let's find the answer. But it didn't stop all the play. It was a, okay, now we know it has seven. What else has seven? Let's go and find out.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

And oh the wonder of that, the curiosity of that. And just beautiful. I was thinking the the the bones in the giraffe's neck was what broke you, is sort of like the straw that broke the camel's back, but it was the giraffe's neck. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Exactly. You know, and it was just one of those things where I was like, all right, fine. I I need a little help because I am not smart enough to keep up with Andrew.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Oh my. Well, we don't know everything, you know, but but AI seems to.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Well, and that's the other thing is showing them if you are going to model with it, that it doesn't know everything and that it's really important to triangulate your sources.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

You know, and and you could model that for kids, even little bitty kids, when you're in that information gathering phase, you could say, you know, I found this information here, but I think we should check two or three other places to make sure it's accurate. You know, and you're just setting them up for success.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Well, that's critical thinking. That's critical thinking. And the other thing that you modeled was, okay, now we know it's seven. You put that darn phone down after that, you know. So they do want to imitate the important adults in their lives. So if the important adults are always here, that's where they want to be, you know. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

And there's so much more to see and do. And I think that's where play can be that powerful thing for kids. You know, we only have a certain amount of time in our lives that we can get dirty and make mistakes, the whole misfrizzle thing. And I frankly think adults should be misfrizzling all the time too. But that's my that's my campaign on the side. But let's start with our early childhood friends. Yeah. This is where you're supposed to get messy and make mistakes and model the idea that you can fail and you can learn from it and you can pick yourself up. You're building resilience and you're building empathy and connection. And that happens through imaginative play. It imagin it happens through solo play. It happens through, you know, playing with found objects or sticks on a playground. Yes. It doesn't have to be fancy or expensive.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Loose parts. Yes, exactly. Exactly. You know, as we said, it's just such a brief moment in the lifespan. And I think if we don't give them the opportunity to experience that joy, they don't have it to take with them into adulthood when things can get a lot less joyous, you know, when there are problems to solve and and conflicts to resolve and all that sort of thing. But yes, when you're talking about I mean children are need three-dimensional multi-sensory experiences. Worksheets and digital devices can't give them three dimensions or multiple senses to use. You know, it's it's not like, you know, there are programs, you know, software programs where you can build a stack of blocks with a mouse, you know, a computer mouse or whatever. That is not the same as having them in your hands, feeling the shape of them, you know, feeling the weight of them, testing out the balance and and discovering that you need a wide base of support for this smaller tower to, you know, to stay up. And I mean, that's that's the way they learn.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

And maybe for grown-ups who don't quite understand the analogy, it's the difference between trying to learn how to play the piano on Duolingo and doing it at a keyboard. You know, if you're trying to learn off an app, you're literally playing a video game. You're using one finger to push buttons and try to play a song. Whereas if you're sitting at an actual piano, you are mastering where the keys actually are and what key goes to what note. And so that would be like the difference for an adult.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

I didn't even know they had that on Duolingo.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yeah, there's a whole music, music as a language thing, which if you're learning to read music is not a bad thing. Right. But for the experience, like you said with the blocks, you know, if you're playing with a computer program to sort of get a sense of how to code, that's one thing. But if you're really wanting to understand how shapes fit together, cause and effect, how weight is impacted, you know, forces of motion, all of that, that comes from the hands-on experience, I think.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Absolutely. And you talked about shapes, you talked about spatial relationships. Those are pertinent to not just to science, but to mathematics. And, you know, we don't think necessarily that spatial relationships have anything to do with literacy, emergent literacy. But it really does. I mean, the shape of the letters. Shape of the letter is exactly, you know, the curving and and straight lines and how they fit together. Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

So if you were thinking about your perfect early childhood classroom, knowing that that thing doesn't really exist, what would be some of the top things you would want to see in there?

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Oh, there has to be, you know, a dramatic play center, a housekeeping center. There have to there have to be blocks, open space for movement, open space for movement, you know, so that the children can experience the freedom of that. And there would be a lot of outdoor space for for movement as well, for movement and play. I mean, there's so much that that nature can offer. And, you know, you don't have to be in the woods, you don't have to be on a farm with acres of land. I mean, bugs are nature. You know, it's gotta be a tree or two somewhere around. Trees are nature, the earth is nature. I mean, the sky is nature, so and we know how much the outdoor light contributes to learning and growth and development and all of that. So, yeah, I would have I I just would and lots of books. Yes. You know, a quiet spot where they can go when they need to be quiet, because it's just so important to, you know, to have that time when you need it. I just want to see more joy in children's early learning environments. I don't know, you know, thinking about the older grades, which has now trickled down to the younger ones, when it was decided that school had to be a miserable place. You know, why can't it be a joyful place? We actually have research now about the role of joy in learning. You know, neuroscientist Judy Willis has said, when the joy stops, when the fun stops, so too does the learning. And that is never more true than what when we're talking about young children. I mean, they are so excited by learning and discovering and exploring. And then we make them sit and do worksheets or try to manipulate a pencil before their little hands are ready, before their bones have even ossified, you know. When we make them feel like failures because they can't read at age three, you know, and I'm one mom did email me and say her son's child care center kept sending home notes complaining that he could not yet properly grip a pencil or sit still. And she wanted to know if a three-year-old should be able to do that. Uh, gee, Diane, I don't know what's the answer. No. I know it hurts my little heart. And then, you know, uh an instructional coach wrote to me and said she was appalled she'd just been in a one-year-old classroom, and I really don't like the term classroom for one year olds, but they were those little ones. I mean, think about a one year old. Um, they those little one year olds were being required to sit for 20 minutes to memorize flashcards of. Letters and numbers. What?

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yes. That's absolutely malpractice in terms of what a child should be doing.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

You know, and I was thinking that calling it a classroom, I I get, I get the need to streamline your language, but I've been thinking a lot about our school environments. And I think it applies certainly in early childhood, and I think applies all the way up as learning ecosystems rather than classrooms. Because when we think about it that way, then we start thinking about what are the nutrients we need to provide? How do we create the best growing conditions for our students? Oh, I love it. I love it. That's another new one on me, Diane. And so, you know, that's part of what I've been talking about when I talk to teachers and talk to schools is, you know, what are those elements that we need? And I would argue that flashcards are one of those things that hinder growth rather than promote growth. And so I would suggest instead, you know, provide one-on-one attention at age one, you know, spend the time singing and making eye contact, doing puppet shows, you know, modeling behaviors that you want them to pick up on in terms of social emotional responses. You know, if you want them to have impulse control, give them opportunities to practice it.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Absolutely. Absolutely. Play some music and dance with them in your arms if they're not yet mobile. You know, there are just so many things that we can do with the little ones, and they are learning. They are learning from everything. They absorb everything.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Imagine a space where curiosity drives innovation, where empathy fuels collaboration, and where learning feels less like a task and more like an adventure. My message isn't about adding more to your plate, it's about changing how you see the plate entirely. I'm Dr. Diane Jackson Schnorr and through the power of purposeful play, I equip leaders, educators, and organizations with the tools you need to unlock creative problem solving, deepen human connection, and build resistant ecosystems of empathy and innovation. Attendees will walk away not just inspired but empowered, with immediately usable strategies to spark curiosity in teams, to lead with empathy, and to infuse learning into their everyday cultures. You'll learn how play isn't child's work, it's the secret weapon of the world's most effective leaders and change makers. This is not a feel-good talk that fades by Monday morning, it's a movement. A shift in how we engage people, solve problems, and lead meaningful change. My talks and workshops are shaped by decades of experience in education and a transformative message that connects across sectors. Whether your audience is corporate, educational, or nonprofit, they'll leave ready to rethink what's possible, both personally and professionally. Because when we learn and lead through play, we don't just change organizations, we change the world. Check it out at drdianeadventures.com. So let's talk a little bit about play in terms of the research, because I do think that's helpful for people to know. What are the long-term benefits of play? Because we're now in an age where we've done a lot of the research. So maybe let's share that with folks.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Yeah, Lisa Murphy in one of her books says, it was probably Lisa Murphy on play, says that we've done all the research. We have all the research. We can stop, you know, talking about that and just get down to it. You know, we we need to put it into practice now. And I don't see that happening. I mean, there was just so much research on the importance of play. Dr. Peter Gray is a wonderful source for that. He's a is he's a psychologist and done a lot of work on the link between play and joy. Oh. I can't. Posse Salberg and William Doyle wrote, Let the Children Play. I read that. Isn't it wonderful? It is. Jam-packed with research, but not in a way that makes you go, oh my God, what are they talking about? In a way that is so accessible and makes you go, yes. So, yeah, there are lots of sources for for the research. I mean, you know, right off the top of my head, all I can think about is is the research on joy and the research on how the brain learns. I mean, we have we have a ton of research about the role of physical activity and movement, because we tend to think of the brain and the body as two separate things, and they're not separate at all. It's kind of a crazy notion. And I can't remember his name either, who wrote Spark, Dr. John Rady, who wrote Spark about the the science of exercise and and learning. He calls movement miracle grow for the brain. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

That's what it is. That fits the ecosystem.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Yes. Yes, it does. It's perfect. It's it's a perfect analogy. You know, when when we do away with recess and children's outdoor time in favor of more instructional time, we we are going completely against the research about the fact that the brain needs breaks, you know, that as Eric Jensen, who's written a bazillion books, you want research on brain-based learning, go to Eric Jensen as well. He's he's he's said that the learning brain can only absorb like 10 minutes of stuff at a time. So making them sit longer for more instructional time is is counterintuitive and counterproductive, you know. I mean, we've got research up to yin-yang, as they say.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Well, and it's then figuring out how do we translate that research into bites that our educators and our early childhood systems can understand, as well as our families in terms of understanding that importance and, you know, thinking about the ecosystem again in terms of how that's set up. We know that movement is one of the things that we need to help children grow. We know that time in individual and group play is something they need to learn and grow. We know other conditions that we can help them with learning and growing is to observe their play and then bring it into those sort of 10-minute packets of inquiry where you can take what they're doing and say, you know, I wonder why is that and how could we find out? And that's where you introduce the experiential element of it. Yeah, exactly. We know that read alouds model fluency, language, provide windows and mirrors and sliding glass doors, thanks, Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop, that help our children see possibilities for themselves as well as appreciate other cultures that they may never experience. But you teach them young. And we know that getting to play in pretend play corners activates empathy and self-awareness. You know, all of these are scientific brain-based things that we should be doing at every opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

I mean, when you think about, you know, what it takes to be an adult and part of a community and part of the world, empathy is right up there at the top of traits that are necessary. The ability to cooperate and collaborate, the ability to resolve conflict, to solve problems. I mean, it doesn't matter what's happening with tech or, you know, I mean, we can prepare them for keyboards now, but they're not going to be using keyboards when they're 20, for sure. Problem solving is the one skill they will absolutely need. And they're not going to learn it if they're doing remote learning, you know, if they're doing memorization or worksheets or, you know, clicking a mouse. That's not how they learn problem solving, figuring out how to get the blocks up without them falling down. That's how they learn problem solving, you know. Yeah, I I I think that we can provide the research for parents, but we don't want to be sending them whole articles. You know, just take a little highlight and and include it in a packet or in your newsletter or your little app. A couple of lines, because it is important for parents to understand that the information isn't coming just from you, you know, the director of the preschool or whatever. You know, send home a quote like Einstein's play is the highest form of research. You know, help them see that a lot of really smart people are thinking of this, you know.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Well, and you can always provide, and one of the things I like to do is to do sort of just a brief summary with bullet points of what it says, and then give them a link. If they want to go deeper, give them the opportunity to go into the article and read it themselves. Exactly. But you're highlighting and then you're you're creating what I call invitations. You're offering an invitation to learn a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, show them the photos, show them the videos of the joy that comes from learning the way nature intended the children to learn. I mean, because they want their children to be joyful, you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

And there are safe ways to do that now where you're not having to post it on social media. You've got things that are contained within your own group. You know, when I ran my preschool, so this was before Seesaw and all of these other apps were out there. We literally used Shutterfly and we had a closed shutterfly group so that the pick, you know, parents would sign off at the beginning of the year. Yes, I give permission, no, I don't. If we didn't have photo permission, we didn't take pictures of their kids. But we would post, you know, if I was on my game, I'd try to do daily like a few shots into the group. If I wasn't, then you got it at the end of the week. But it was enough to show them, you know, that conversation at the end of the day is always rushed. And the kids don't necessarily go home and you know, at little as when they're little, they can't always communicate what they did that day. And so by sharing a few pictures with an explanation, you know, this is what happened when we brought out the shaving cream and read this book. And we were working on letter sounds and things like that, but we were also playing with textures and, you know. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Were you doing that by instinct? Or I mean, it seems like you were ahead of your time, 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

It was instinct at the time, and it was knowing my community because we were in a small town and we were the largest preschool in that town. And so inevitably, we sent almost 50% of the kids that went on to kindergarten to the local village school. And so I had come from UVA, which is where I did my doctorate, and in many ways, my preschool got to be my living lab. And so the things that I had learned at UVA that intuitively made sense to me, yes, thanks to Reverend Doug Fisher and Grace Episcopal Church, I was allowed to test them out. Yes. And, you know, we and not testing it out with the kids as like little lab subjects, but no, but I learned a lot about what to do and what not to do by working with the little ones, you know.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

I mean exactly.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

It's trial and error. And we invited the families in too. So that was the other piece I learned is by having an open door where we welcomed parents in and we welcomed family members in to read stories, to help with snacks, to assist when we had rainy day games, because we would use the big open space in the church meeting hall. And we would bring out like the, you know, the little Hot Wheel car or not cars, but like the little trikes and stuff. And the kids would get to play up there. And we would organize obstacle games and we would play with the parachute, you know, and it was that freedom of movement, as you said.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Yes, yes. And and you're absolutely right. That having an open door policy where the parents can witness this is is critical, I think. You know, and maybe where the administrators could witness it as well. And and if you've got, you know, the opportunity and the nerve, invite some policymakers in, make them sit at those little desks and do worksheets.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

And then I used to get the superintendent of schools, because we were not a public school, but we were feeding all those kids in. And so I would get the superintendent to come in and at least once or twice a year, he'd come in for the morning and spend an hour playing. Oh, I love it. I felt that way at least what we were doing translated. And there was a greater understanding of it.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, if people are going to be making decisions about children, young children, they have to understand how special, how unique early childhood is. I mean, I'm always saying they're a whole different animal. You know, you you just because they've walked through the doors of an elementary school and they're preschoolers in a public place now doesn't mean they're just like the older children. In fact, you know, up until grade three, those children are more like, you know, kindergarten or grade three, they're more like preschoolers developmentally than like their older counterparts. And I don't find that enough school administrators understand that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Um, and I certainly see that when I travel and do programs in schools because I'll do stuff for early elementary where I'm modeling the idea of linking picture books to STEM and STEAM. And often I still bring in like the Kapla Kiva planks and we play games and I give them STEM challenges, like you have to build an environment for a penguin. What are the things we know a penguin needs? And you know, they each have a kit of tools they can use. And they're working with classmates to design their thing and they've got books to look at and you know, see pictures and sort of think, what would a penguin need to survive in New York? Oh my. You know, because that brings it home to, you know, you're living in New York. It's not the same as Antarctica. You know, what are some of the things that we know? And what I find is the quality of talk that happens in the classroom when I do something like that. You know, I'm the disruptor. I come in and I shift things from what they normally do. I love it. But the kids, the talk that happens in that moment is so powerful because they're making up stories. They start playing with their penguins and moving their little penguins around. And next thing I know, they're full penguin families. We've got games of moving the rocks up and down, we're sliding. Yeah. And it's the kind of joy that comes intuitively in preschool. Yes. But it's not as intuitive when you get to second and third grade. And those are the kids who really need it. And often their teachers will comment later, oh wow, I've never seen that side of so-and-so. And it has everything to do with that's a child who maybe doesn't thrive in a sit-at-your desk and fill out worksheets, but is a leader when it comes to getting people comfortable in a group. And that that trait also needs to be recognized and nurtured.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Absolutely. Observing children at play is probably the best way to come to understand them. What are their interests? What are their passions, even at that age? You know, where are they most curious? What kind of learner are they? You know, do they have to be touching things? I know the whole learning style thing has been debunked, but uh I, you know, I'm much more of a visual learner and a kinesthetic learner than I am an audio person. So yeah, watching them play is just the best way to come to know them.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Absolutely. So if you could wave your magic wand and make one change for the world, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 38:07

I feel like the beauty contest contestant, beauty pageant contestant who wants to say, world peace. I would ask for world peace. If I could wave my magic wand and make one change in early childhood education, it would be my mission. It is to follow child development, to, you know, to let child development guide all of our interactions with them. If we understand child development, we don't ask them to read when they're three or to hold a pencil when they're three. We don't ask them to sit when they're even five, you know, and sit still for understanding. It all comes down to an understanding of child development. So there, I'm waving my magic wand and I love that.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

And in terms of, I think that we're in a culture of greater and greater burnout for teachers in particular. And I know a lot of that is the extra demands that are put on their plates. I think also anecdotally, I've seen teachers who are sort of with that wave of kids who were most affected by the COVID shutdowns and they're finding developmental delays and experiencing severe frustrations in how do we, how do we reach and help these kids? Yeah. How do we, I get it's a two-part question, I guess. How do we help those kids and how do we help the teachers grappling with burnout?

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Burnout is becoming more and more prevalent, as you say. What I want to recommend seems counterintuitive, but in when I was researching my book, Spark, something about spark a revolution in early childhood, you know, it's about advocacy. And I think that if you can find even the teeniest, tiniest way to advocate, and the the suggestions that we've made for providing information to parents, that's advocacy. Asking someone to say childcare instead of daycare, that's advocacy. You know, pointing out the ways in which you're not a babysitter is advocacy. You know, all of these little things that you wouldn't, it's it's not going and testifying before Congress, but it's all advocacy. If you can find a way to advocate in whatever way is comfortable for you, you're going to be more empowered. And with that empowerment comes more energy. I mean, you know, we could talk self-care until we're blue in the face, and it's all important. But that's, you know, that's one little thing, one little difference, I think, that we can begin to incorporate.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

I like that. And then in terms of working with the children who are sort of in that post-COVID state where they didn't get the time to play with other groups of kids, they were isolated in many ways. Yeah. How do we sort of help bridge that? Because those kids are struggling, some of them in school right now.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Yeah, they are. But I think if we just let them play, they're going to be fine. You know, they'll find their way through that. If we, you know, set up those invitations for play and and create those scenarios that make it possible and just love on them. You know, it's going to be okay. I I think, I mean, I haven't researched it, but my my gut feeling is that the reason those children are struggling is because so many parents, misunderstanding what they needed at that time, sat them in front of computers, you know, for virtual learning. And not realizing that if they just let the kids play with their toys, they would be so much better off, you know?

SPEAKER_01 41:52

And so maybe it is more of those opportunities to engage in collective problem solving and playful learning. Yeah. And that's hard to think about because school systems are looking at standardized tests and everything else. And it may be let's take a step back and look at what these kids need to develop as whole humans and know that the rest moves from there.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Well, and the research does show, Diane, that children who are in play-based environments, early learning environments, actually do better academically down the line than those who are in academics-oriented preschools. So we got to push that message out there.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

Exactly. So that's actually a great point. I want to transition for just a moment before I ask my final question. Ray, you have a number of resources that are available to folks. Can you describe them? And I'm going to drop links in the show notes for people, but just so they know how to find you and how you might be able to help them out.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Oh, thanks. Well, everything they need to know about my work is at raypika.com, and they can sign up there for access to my free resource library. There are 20 downloadable guides, but I also have some more special downloadable guides and some online courses at raypeka.teachable.com. I love creating the online courses. You know, that's that's being able to reach the the teachers that way has been wonderful. You know, and I've written 23 books, so most of which are still in print. So those are, you know, described on the website as well.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Wonderful. And we'll include links to that. So last question for today. What brings you hope?

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Oh, okay. What brings me hope? Well, I told you before we started that I'm a little bit fried. I always am at this time of year. I'm always thinking if I could just get through to Thanksgiving, I'll be okay. So it's hard to think about hope when you are burning out a little bit. What gives me hope is that I have a friend in Colorado who runs a nature-based childcare program out of her home. She's brilliant at it. And she can't even keep up with enrollment because she tells me more and more parents are coming to her for her philosophy. They're turning away from the academics-based programs. And it's her feeling that the tide is beginning to turn. So I hold on to that.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

Yeah. I love that. Well, thank you for joining us today. Folks, you need to follow Ray Pika and Ray Pika's work. And I have just I feel invigorated after this very play-filled conversation. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

I do too. I feel so much better. Thank you, Diane.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

You've been listening to the Adventures in Learning podcast with your host, Dr. Diane. If you like what you're hearing, please subscribe, download, and let us know what you think, and please tell a friend. If you want the full show notes and the pictures, please go to dr Dianeadventures.com. We look forward to you joining us on our next adventure.