Off the Wall: Molly Idle & Juana Martinez-Neal on Collaboration, Picture Books, & the Power of Play (Ep. 200)

What happens when two beloved picture book creators, Caldecott Honorees, and longtime friends with very different artistic styles make a book together?

In Episode 200 of the Adventures in Learning podcast, host Dr. Diane Jackson Schnoor welcomes acclaimed authors and illustrators Molly Idle and Juana Martinez-Neal for a warm, funny, and thoughtful conversation. Together, they offer an exclusive look behind their new picture book, Off The Wall, exploring the joys and messy realities of true creative collaboration.

Along the way, they talk about trust, studio process, file-naming systems, rhinoceroses, rhino dehorning, sidewalk chalk, and why play still matters for adults just as much as children.

Episode Summary

Making Art & Sharing the Journey

This milestone episode is a celebration of making things together. Molly and Juana share how their artistic partnership evolved from an earlier project (I Don't Care) into a deeper collaboration where they learned to trade off, set aside egos, and choose the best idea for the story. They also share candid insights into the business side of being children's book artists, navigating long-distance co-creation, and why traveling together makes the creative journey far more meaningful.

From Picture Books to Conservation in South Africa

There is also an inspiring South Africa thread running through this conversation. The episode returns to their shared experience with Wild Tomorrow, the Green Mambas, community-led conservation, rewilding, and the creative problem-solving required to protect both people and the planet. From community murals to wildlife protection, the episode highlights a core truth: art, like conservation, is collaborative, messy, and deeply human.

Why Adults Need Play

At the center of it all is a question that reaches beyond the picture book page and into everyday life: how do we keep play alive? Molly and Juana make a compelling case that creativity isn't just for childhood, showing how everyday play opens the door to empathy, curiosity, and human connection. That is exactly the kind of learning this podcast loves to celebrate.

Chapters & Timestamps

• 00:00 - Introduction & Reunited Friends 
• 01:17 - Collaborating Across Distance 
• 03:22 - What Story-First Collaboration Looks Like 
• 06:36 - The Business vs. The Art 
• 12:39 - First Look at Off The Wall 
• 18:38 - "Happy Accidents" in the Studio 
• 22:24 - Memories from South Africa 
• 25:28 - Dr. Diane Mid-Roll 
• 27:01 - Street Art & Everyday Creativity 
• 32:32 - The Vital Importance of Adult Play 
• 35:03 - Lessons from Conservation Workers 
• 48:18 - Play-Based Learning Over Prescriptive Teaching 
• 50:43 - What Brings You Hope?

Links & Resources

• Pre-Order Off The Wall (Releasing August 4, 2026!) Pre-order your copy and support independent bookstores.
• Molly Idle’s Official Website
• Juana Martinez-Neal’s Official Website
• Wild Tomorrow
• Listen to Molly (#149) & Juana's (#137) Previous Episodes 
• Explore the CBCC & Wild Tomorrow Series

Call to Action

Listen to the full episode, pre-order or pick up Off the Wall, and take a moment this week to make something with someone else. Draw, paint, write, build, or simply play. The episode is a reminder that learning is richer when it is shared, and creativity is better when it is messy, joyful, and alive.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to the Adventure Money Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Diane, and today we have two of my favorite people of all time on the podcast. My absolute favorite. And I cannot wait to talk about their cooperation, the win, the books that's coming out, and maybe a little bit about rhinoceroses and hyenas as well. Wonder, curiosity, connections. Where will your adventures take you? I'm Dr. Diane, and thank you for joining me on today's episode of Adventures in Learning. So, welcome to the show. It is so good to see you both. Good to see you. Great to see you. And you all have had just amazing years since I last left you. Um, it's been a year of great awards for you, Hanna. How cool that you got the recognition you deserved for your beautiful books this year. I have to tell you, I was screaming in front of the um awards when ALA was announcing stuff this winter. I was so excited for you. Thank you. Thank you. So let's talk a little bit about the new picture book. Tell us about what's coming out and uh sort of about the process, because you don't live in the same place. So I think people are gonna be interested about how two close friends are able to work on a book together.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Well, I think we we should start by saying that at one point we did live relatively close, 20 minutes away, 25 minutes away, but uh since you know a few years, I would say five years ago I moved to Connecticut. So now we are, you know, long distance.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

I don't know. Um Yeah, but for but for almost 20 years. We were yeah, like only about 20 minutes apart. 20 years and 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

And you've worked together now on combined projects. This is the third one, right? Uh second?

SPEAKER_01 2:07

It'll be the second that's out. Yeah. Second sound. Second, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

So what is that like working together?

SPEAKER_02 2:16

I think the first book was very different than this one. The first book that we worked together, where we worked together was I don't care, and we were doing the illustrations, and then Julie Faliano had done the manuscript. And then this one is this whole different thing because it's an author, it's an author illustrator. So there's the writing and there's the illustrating, plus the distance and the you know, the collaboration, like a full-on collaboration. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

Mm-hmm. And off the wall, what inspired it?

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Well, well, uh the title, that's that's one story, but like the the the actual collaboration of it or the the idea to make it actually sprung from our first collaboration because we learned so much. You know, you it's one thing to be friends with somebody, and it's another to get a real it's a privilege to get to look inside somebody else's process, their working process, particularly in art making. And and it was, you know, Juana is she always thinks further ahead than I do, which is really a good thing. And she had been worried, like she was worried that it would be a strain on our friendship. And I was like, no, it'll be fine, because I'm just like ever optimistic. But only like after we came through the first book did we realize, like, gosh, it there are so many places things can go wrong and people can disagree. We we are very different bookmakers, but when it comes to the decisions that we do make, it's all about what's best for the book. And in that we have in common, like what the story needs and what the art needs. And so we're both able to set aside our egos in that, and and we realize like that's that's not a given, you know, like that back and forth and like the nature of conflict when you're making whether it's making art or making business decisions or you know, making a a peace treaty, you know, there's like there's a lot that goes into it, and there's and everybody has a different way, and it doesn't mean it's bad just because it's different, but you do have to take it into account. And we thought there's a story there.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

I'm gonna have to add to that. Molly sold a story in it.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

I didn't. There's no I in team, Wana. There's there was there was Well, we were working on I don't care.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Molly kept saying, I think there's a book in there. And I'm like, okay, I keep working, right? And like, I think we need to sell this book. And I'm like, okay, well, we need to get something together. All right, something I'm really good for being along.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Is that right? No, that's not well, and that is no small thing though, because it's trust, right? Like, because she could have been like, yeah, no. Or or or like there are but there are times for both of us, for each of us in the creative process, I think, in the collaborative process, where we may not see where the other person, like you can't totally picture it, but we trust in each other. And so, like, that goes both ways. One, I'll say, I just a second, I'm gonna, you know, like I think there's a better way. Okay. You know, like I'll sit back, I want to see this better way, because something that that we both feel is that it doesn't matter. I mean, it was very kind of wanted to say, yeah, that was your idea, but ultimately it doesn't matter who has the idea. Yeah. What matters is we choose the best idea, whether it's like what direction to go in a story, where to place a particular character on a particular page, like all of that, it doesn't matter. Like it's not like, oh, you've made six decisions. Now it's my turn. You know, like it's not, it's not like that. You're not keeping score of I have five, you have four.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

The thing is, it's such a long process that it's really hard to keep score, right? Like you, how could you like remember something that happened a year and a half ago or two years ago, right? I mean, we signed, we released I don't care November of 22nd, November of 22. So if you think about it, it's almost four years ago, and that's probably five since we finished the artwork. So how could you even keep score?

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Right? And and the fact is that like we both have different, we each have different strengths, which is one of the things that that makes like for for good collaborating. Because if you have the same strength, then like what's the point kind of thing, you know? Like, but but we do wanna pointed this out, and I thought I hadn't really thought about it before, but it's true. We each lead sort of at different parts, like we each take the reins in different parts of the creative process. And like, so there'll be times when, yeah, Juana's doing more work than I am in a given part, and then vice versa. And so, but it all comes out in the wash, you know, like it's in the end what we end up with. We do try and make sure whenever there's I don't want to call it busy work, but when there's like tedious stuff that has to get, yeah, tedious work that we try and divvy that up so that it nobody's doing like all of that, because who wants to do that?

SPEAKER_03 7:31

What is the tedious work for people who don't illustrate and don't write? What is tedious work?

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Writing emails sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Not even, not even like little things like cleaning backgrounds, let's say, for example, that's tedious work, for example.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Yeah, oh like naming files, like file naming conventions.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

But like Wana loves that, and I'm like, please, please. I have I have a you know, like a way of sorting my files that is very anal. And it has been kept for 20 years since I started making books. For 20 years, it's the same way. So I'm it's in my brain that if I need something, ah, I know, I know how to get this. So yeah, when it comes to naming, naming and renaming, because the thing is the first the first two, three, four, five letters of the of the whole file name is the initials of the book. So off the wall will be O F T, underscore, and then something, right? So at one point it was not off the wall, it was something else. It was called and, right? So then we have to rename all the files. Oh, no.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

You know, it's fun. But this is where, like, this is where like we do trade off. Because I was like, we just keep them that way, you know, it's just no. Okay, okay, you know, like like but like honestly, but there are then things, I'm trying to think like things where I am like, no, it has like this is how like I organize stuff, this is how like I write things out. And and it's good to know like w we try and be good, like if it really matters to one of us, like then that's that's the way we go, you know. And if it doesn't matter, then you know, but odds are it matters to one of us, whatever it is. We're both pretty type A.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

So yeah. And we like we l enjoy different things. Like I like the naming of the files. Molly doesn't mind writing emails, like it comes really easy to me, and I stress about it because I'm thinking overthinking, right? So that that compensates, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we each try and take on like I when you ask what's boring, I I won't say it's boring. The business part of business is very necessary, but let's be honest, it's not as much fun as drawing and painting and no, and when you're interested in that's not the stuff that you love doing.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

You didn't get into this to be your own publicist or your own business manager.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Or I didn't get to when I started making books, I didn't know I had to actually show the books. I just came to make pictures. And when it came to the other side, then that was interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

That's one thing though that we found it is super fun to do together. Like we enjoy, like we just enjoy being together. So anytime that we are out and about talking about the books, not unlike this right now. Like when you're with friends, everything's better, right? You know, like so it's it's nice when we are at a conference or like doing the purpose, it's easier. It just feels like you're you know, you share it alone.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Being traveling alone can be so hard. Yeah, you know, like on your hotel by yourself, watching Netflix, right? Table for one, please. You know, like I mean they're done that.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

It could be so fun too, right? Like it can be adventurous, but like, you know, when you're spending a lot of time getting from place to place, and it's just nice to have somebody to talk to about all of it, too, that that shares the experiences with you, you know, which is like yeah, it's just really, really nice to be able to share all aspects of your life with somebody. Like so often you have friends, right? But they don't either work where you work or or even like do what you do. And so of course they can empathize and they can, you know, they can understand, you know, like, oh, that sounds like you had a difficult day, or that sounds really fun. But as we all know from like, gosh, just like our trip to South Africa together. It's one thing to tell somebody a story about a rhinoceros, it's another to be like, oh, that rhinoceros, yes, and I felt that rhinoceros. And you know, like so this is sort of shared experiences like that. You get to get in that much deeper when it's somebody who shares it with you.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

I love it. Speaking of rhinoceros, was it 157 or 150? What was it? 52, 54 that turned into 154 because it was the double. Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Oh, yeah, there were two number 15s, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:59

And then they had to change the number in the file. They needed your filing system. I see another way we could be of help out there. Exactly. You can go organize the rhino dehorning.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

Yeah, right. No, it's rhino, period. That's how they like that's how they kept record record of them.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

No, that's true. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

Anyway, we're gonna get back to that in a moment. But I figured before we do that, since you like sharing your book, would you all like to share a little bit of off the wall with us and talk about some of the process? Sure. What do you want to know? I mean, because we can talk. Are there pages you want to share? Do you want to talk a little bit about the story? Uh the one where they are all together, maybe? Oh, yeah. Let me grab that. Because I see you both have the book behind you. Yes, we just got copies last week. One. That's so exciting. Oh, we've got to be able to do that. Those who are listening, when can they buy the book? August 4th.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

Tuesday, August 4th, 2026. Available wherever books are sold. Books are yes, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 13:15

But we do encourage you, please use your indie booksellers.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Yeah, bookshop. Yes, and in February, we are going to be it is. I was gonna say, bookshop.org is gonna be offering a special pre-order, like a gift with pre-order, so that you will be supporting local indies while shopping in the comfort of your own home.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

I will drop that link because that's one of my favorite things. And I've actually already included off the wall in the 365-day picture book read aloud calendar, too.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

And Juana, were you talking about this page? I was talking about when they are all in the oh, I love that one.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

Oh, I should have made you both close and open to your favorite page. I may still do that.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

That one. So that's success. Final.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Success. Yeah. All of them looking at what they've made together. Yeah. That that was like sort of how we felt when we when we finished, we were in Juana's studio, which you can see behind her now if you're if you're watching on video. But we had all the pieces laid out on the ground to check. Because there were so many pieces, like literally so many pieces, not of the art, but so many pieces of things collaged onto the art. We drawn onto the art.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

A leash. Two pair two shoes. Because they will fly apart. You know, they will be in the two dogs, two, two leash, a dog, a cat, five children, an ice cream cone. Ice cream cone.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

And like chalk everywhere. Like pieces of chalk, a bucket, and pieces of chalk that filled the bucket and then went all over.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Tiny, tiny, tiny.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Like placing them tweezers. And the way we worked was and that kind of helped the process of like exchanging, like passing the work back and forth is we worked on these paper that was kind of like the color of uh craft paper. And that was the surface. And then we laid out we painted pieces of cardboard one color for each character. So we had seven colors, right? Yes. We had seven colors, and then that was all the color that we had in the in the book. So each all the seven colors and the cr the craft of the paper. And black. Right. Yeah. And then we did our own. We each like I did my because if we haven't said that, but the children are based on our children. So I have my three. Molly had her two. Molly had one cat and I had one dog. We each have two, but we picked just one. And then we will draw transfer them, draw on them, cut them, and then glue onto the paper in that order. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

So it was so that was really it was a lot, but it was so on I don't care we had to send the drawings back and forth a lot because we would drop the part. So we would like stamp the line of cut, we would stamp the line of cut on the paper. And then sometimes those had to overlap. So like Juana would stamp yellow, and I would stamp blue, and then sometimes they'd overlap and there would be green. And we'd need both of those stamps to be done before we could draw on top of them. So like and and the stamps had to happen in a particular order. The yellow had to go over the blue. So yes, the blue first.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

So like yellow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

So like I might have to, it might have been the case where like I needed to stamp first, but Wana needed to draw first. And so there was a lot of like stamp, stamp. Oh, but did I need to draw first? Then it had to come back to me. Then it had to go back to Wana. So there was like a lot of interchanging. This, while it was a lot of work to get each of the pieces prepped, there were only were there seven pieces in the ends where we had to be, like where we needed to be together because there had to be drawn elements that we needed to create together before we could glue. But there were a number of pieces where we were able to work, like I did my bit, now I'm sending it to you, you do your bit, and that piece is done.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

And and like if, for example, on that piece that we show you, there were some characters that were on top of the other, right? So let's say Molly's characters were here, and then mine was right underneath, right? So Molly will glue most of it, but leave this little tiny area open so I can squeeze my character underneath and glue it in. So there was a lot of like technical little things that we figured out as we were going. But the funny part of those seven pieces is that when we were working on the dummies and on the sketches, right? On the dummy and the sketches, we had this one spread where we were going to show the masterpiece, you know, the artwork that the children created. And throughout the whole process, we will write big letters that says big masterpiece here, but we never figured out what masterpiece it was. It's gonna be great. No, it's gonna be great. So whenever in those seven pieces, there was showing the masterpiece, but we needed to be together because we needed to figure out what you're the masterpiece and it needed to build based on like whatever they had drawn or whatever they had made separately, you know, needed to be reincorporated.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

But but it was fascinating how like so yeah, we knew we needed to be together, and we also just like we were worried, but we were also like, we'll figure it out. Like we had a general idea, like we knew it was gonna involve everything. Okay, you know, and so and we did like we did a couple sketches, but ultimately just being together, just like the kids are in the book, or what we needed, and not to give not not to give any spoilers away, but things don't always go the way that you plan when you're creating. And we had like some Bob Ross happy accident moments while we were actually making the art, and then we were like, that's actually better than anything we would have. Like, I don't know, like I don't know what we were what we were originally planning because that idea was gone out of our heads the moment like this accident happened. We had we had all these pastels that we had chosen to match the colors of the characters. So when they draw in the book, they draw in their own color. So you can keep track of who has made what as they're creating their art. And one of those pastels literally, like the moment I touched the paper, it went like it's just like and and we'd already glued things to this paper, like we had to make it work. Like, well, that just exploded. You know, like are we gonna completely remake this piece or are we gonna make it work? And then we were like, well, it'd be kind of great if we could make it work because that's what the kids do in the book, you know? But then I I would say, like, then we had to work to replicate that explosion, but it was fine because those pastels just fell apart whenever we tried to use them. It was just everyone we were covered in it. Yeah, it was just one color.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

One color. Yeah, because we were the whole idea was okay, so the main pay the main characters are painted on gouache, acrylic wash. And what we okay, so they we were thinking, okay, it's perfect. We've found our characters, these are the colors we're set. I now need to move on to the practical side of it, which is was making the artwork. And we were like, okay, we need to find pastel that actually matches, and that was a whole task, right? Oh, because we it needed to be like the perfect too blue, too red, too dull, too bright, too like something always until we found that pink that was just right.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

And it was it was like it just vaporized, and like I in it, it was amazing, but like you could not control it. And we had to like this is where I feel like Wana has it all over me in the creative process because I am so often about like the tight control, figuring out like the smooth paper and the and over time, Wana has like it's like exposure therapy. Right. Like now I'm like comfortable with a little bit more texture, comfortable with not having as much control. But I feel like people who are painters and mixed media artists, the best ones, like like Wana, are comfortable with like they have control. They know what they're doing, but they're also there's a Zen like quality about being okay with the medium doing its thing, which I am never okay with.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

And I'm sort of thinking about Juana, I remember you being very zen as you did the lines of a certain rhinoceros family. And Molly, I remember you being very precise in your lines, but also very gracious to those of us with minimal artistic talent. And I you guys did amazing. We just needed to do the lines, and they also enjoy to watch the two of you in process together. Like for me, that was there was magic in that, and seeing you all work with John and with Kayla to sort of craft the outline and then bring us in to help fill in the other pieces, but it was magical. And I still can't believe that we finished it in four hours. I that you all had done a lot of planning and prep work ahead of time in terms of what you needed and wanted.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

I'm all worried about that. I thought we were going to be there for like four days. I swear to God, I was I saw myself going back and painting and painting. So I'm glad that you were all there.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Oh, and glad that you were also game. Like you guys, you're selling yourself so way short. Everybody was like everybody was nervous, but you were all very brave. Like you powered through because, and honestly, that's one of the things that I feel like is one of the benefits of art in so many ways and collaboration is like, first of all, this is not brain surgery. Like it can be very important and it can require precision. But if it doesn't work out, we start again. We paint over it. We we work with the mess, you know. And so I really feel like art is one of those ways that people can come together and it just cuts through a lot. First of all, you're already working on something that is outside of whatever your day-to-day is, right? You know, and and hopefully it doesn't carry a lot of baggage with it. You just want to make something together. And when you're working on a piece, it doesn't matter where you're from, you know, like what you do for a living, what your political affiliation is, like none of that. You just bypass all of that. Hand me the green, you know, person standing next to me, hand me the blue, you know, like can you fill in that spot? Can you reach that? And everybody's focused on something that is a common goal. And I feel like art is a real shortcut to empathy. That it finish, right? To finish, to make it as to make, to make something that didn't exist before. And so art's all about building, you know, and making stuff and making stuff together is the the subtitle of of this book, because that's what we're doing. That's what we're all trying to do every day in every aspect of our lives.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

Imagine a space where curiosity drives innovation, where empathy fuels collaboration, and where learning feels less like a task and more like an adventure. My message isn't about adding more to your plate, it's about changing how you see the plate entirely. I'm Dr. Diane Jackson Schnorr, and through the power of purposeful play, I equip leaders, educators, and organizations with the tools you need to unlock creative problem solving, deepen human connections, and build resistant ecosystems of empathy and innovation. Attendees will walk away not just inspired but empowered, with immediately usable strategies to spark curiosity in teams, to lead with empathy, and to infuse learning into their everyday cultures. You'll learn how play isn't child's work. It's the secret weapon of the world's most effective leaders and change makers. This is not a feel-good talk that stays by Monday morning, it's a movement. A shift in how we engage people, solve problems, and lead meaningful change. My talks and workshops are shaped by decades of experience in education and a transformative message that connects across sectors. Whether your audience is corporate, educational, or nonprofit, they'll be ready to rethink what's possible, both personally and professionally. Because when we learn and lead through play, we don't just change organizations, we change the world. Check it out at drdianadventures.com. I love the idea of making stuff together. You know, I was thinking about the little girl Landra, who was there. Wound up because she was fascinated by all of you. And, you know, I had a moment of time, so I'm reading stories to her. I'm like, this was my heaven to sit and read your books to this little girl. And I remember I got to bring her to you, Wana, and I said, Do you want to meet the woman who drew this picture? And she goes, Wait, what? And I brought her over to you. And you know, you're in the middle of painting the rhino, and you took that moment and you made eye contact with her, and she grew about 10 inches in that moment. Because she was like, I now know somebody who paints for a living. And then she sat down next to me and I had that little bit I was doing with the bushes. And sh I said, You want like, don't tell the other kids here, you want to help me? And so we wound up painting together. And I'm sure that when she goes to visit her mom at the crush, because her mom was one of the teachers, she probably feels a sense of ownership now that this is mine, and I helped create that. And I love the idea that art brings us together. And now I'm starting to think that maybe we need to be having people doing murals everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Completely agree. And when there was one teacher who came in and he said, That's not what I thought this was gonna be. And we were like, I'm sorry. You know, like you don't have to stay. And he said, Well, I teach high school kids and I just don't see how drawing pictures is gonna be helpful to them like at all. I can't see how I could use this in my classroom. And we were like, Well, again, yes, you're welcome to go, but if you stay, I think you'll have fun. You know, like so he said, Fine, I'll stay. And and we start, you know, leading the workshop and people are drawing things, and then they would swap. And after we did that first swap, then we were like, All right, now, now you're gonna swap again. Like, and you're gonna like now you're gonna have like four people working together, right? By the end of this workshop, that same teacher was like showing us, look, look what we made, look what we made, look what we made together. And when he left, he's like, I'm gonna do this with all my kids. And we were like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

In Art Bonburg.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

You know, like I mean, I get it because people feel like because it's something they did when they were a child, so many people leave art making behind at some point in their life. You know, like somewhere between graceful and middle school, a shift happens. And some people keep making art and some people don't, you know, that's that's a generality, but like but then they tend to look at it like I have outgrown that, I have left that behind, you know, and you needn't, and you can come back to it at any point in your life. It's never too late to pick up a brush or a pencil.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

I think that what we remember when we were the those coloring books were selling so much during the pandemic, because yeah, we had the space and the time, and people were trying to fill in literally and technically you know, fill in spaces, you know. That's what it was. I mean, they it's it's giving yourself the time and being open to discomfort, the discomfort of is it gonna be okay? Am I gonna make a mess? It's okay, I can do it, and then you go, right? But yeah, art is good.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Art is good, it's good. And I think it's something that we've talked about too. Like as we've talked about ways to get the books into people's hands and and encourage more people to create, you know, so often the conversation centers around, well, let's get this in an art classroom, or let's get this, and but that's just not the only like art can happen anywhere. I love that art happens in in a classroom setting too. But like art for these kids, they're not in a classroom in in off the wall, they're just out on a wall. They just happen to bump into each other, playing tip-tac-toe, get something started, you know. Like, there's no I like I I love I love street art and I love performance art and I love art in all its forms, the culinary arts, right? Like, so there's just so many ways to bring creativity into your life. And I think the more that we can embrace that, like, the more open-minded we become, too.

SPEAKER_03 31:54

Well, and you just inspired me. I'm actually thinking maybe I start sticking sidewalk chalk and other things in my little free library along with the book. I do.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

I do, I do, and and it always disappears. Because people love to do, you know. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 32:09

Oh, I love it. When's the last time you drew a hopscotch, Diane? Closer than you think. Yes. I would say within the last summer. Pretty much if you show me sidewalk chalk, I will do a ch I will draw rainbows and I'll do my dad.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

We missed it in South Africa. We did it in South Africa. We did, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:33

That was really fun. I mean, I remember sitting and playing with chalk and watching you all make make beautiful flowers and and jump roping. Like the idea that we can play as adults is huge. That it's not just for kids.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Oh, it's so important. It's so important. And I think it sound it it sounds counterintuitive to practice play. But you do have to. You need to play. You just need to make like Juana saying, you need to make the time. You need to make that time to be bored, try something, you know, and it doesn't have to be a big thing, it can be a small thing, you know, and like I delight in arranging tiny things in the house to tell little stories. You know, like I don't I can't even think of an example right now, but like I'll put something next to something else, and in my mind, like that's like, you know, how we're, you know, like how I decorate is through like storytelling design. We have one of the little figurines that we brought back from South Africa. I have a little wooden hippo, and we have a lot of woodwork in the front room of our house, and now we play this game, hide the hippo. So like we just set him against stuff. And like when you find the hippo, then it's your turn. So like you walk into the room and it's like, where's the hippo? Where's the hippo? So, like, but just like introducing tiny, I mean, and I live with all grown-ups, Diane. Like, I have no small children in the house, but like we just love to play. Even my older parents get in on it. Like, did you find the hippo? Did you move the hippo? Okay. You know, like love that.

unknown 34:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:13

My grown-up daughters, you know, those little decks of cards that you get, like when you're doing the Christmas crackers and you get people there are like these little teeny tiny playing cards. I am still finding cards hidden all over the house because the two girls who are in their 20s got together and they hid them all over the place. And I'm talking, you know, some of it reminded me of the All of a Kind family books. Like if you're dusting and you're you're finding stuff, it's like tucked into these really random places. So clearly my house cleaning was not up to par.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

But I'm finding it tiny every day. They are so tiny. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:51

I found one wrapped up in the cat's collar. Like they had folded it, and you know, the little error tag that you can put on your cat. It was behind the air tag. Nice. But that's playful. Like I I love the fact that the girls are comfortable enough that they come home and play. And little do they know I plan on doing this to both of them next time I'm visiting their houses because there are more cards to be found. So let's vote South Africa for a moment. Just because I can't leave this conversation without going back. You know, I've been doing a series where I'm talking to the folks at Wild Tomorrow, and it's been so fun for me because it's looking at the whole organization, like not just what John and Wendy are doing, but like talking about talking with Sia and about what the Rangers do, talking with the Green Mambas, which was amazing. They even sang for me. Oh you know, talking to Tori and Kevin and Sapeeway. But yeah, I was thinking, you know, each of them is part of that story, but so are we in terms of having been there and been part of it. So what were the things that you brought back? What are the stories you tell from your time with CBCC and Wild Tomorrow?

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Hmm, that's a good question. I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

All right. I I have one, so I'll start and then you take off. There was a time, I was like, I think it was like the second to last day we were there. And we were driving around a reserve, and I was sitting next to Sim Peewe, and I just said, tell me about yourself. Like I want to know like how, like, how did you come to be working here? And I want to hear everything. And she told me that when she was a little girl living in the village with her grandparents and her parents, that her grandparents were wildlife farmers. So like they would raise the animals that that reserves would purchase, you know, for their for their land. So giraffes and zebras and things like that. First of all, I had no idea that that was a job, which was super exciting to me. Like, well, but by like on the flip side of that, that was the only job she knew growing up, like that people farmed. And she said, then one day when she started going to school, the school had a ranger, a park ranger, visit. And when she found out that there were people who just like cared for the animals and looked after the land, she was like, Oh my gosh, that's what I want to be when I grow up. So that was her goal. And she worked and worked until she got to university. And when she got to the university, the people there were like, Are you sure you want to be a park ranger? You know, like your grades are amazing, and maybe you want to do something else. You don't seem particularly outdoorsy, you know? And she was like, Well, what else is there? And so they were saying, Well, you, you know, with you know, what an amazing like reader you are and your language skills, like it seems like maybe education, like outreach in some sort of like conservation would be a thing. And she was like, I had no idea that was a job. And then she said that before she met all of us, he had no idea that what we did was a job. And like, and I was thinking about how like how travel and how connection and like learning, it just continually opens your world. Like, and how that, like, wow, the choices we could make if we knew more, right? You know, like, and like, so I had no idea like what she had grown up with was a thing, and she had no idea what I had grown up with was a thing. And we met in the middle. And that is what I think was so magical about that experience is the exchange of ideas with people. But we all had a common goal, right? To to help people learn and protect the planet. But we had come at it from two like vastly different ends of the spectrum, but that didn't stop us from meeting in the middle and becoming like friends. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

Um I don't know if I have one one memory. I mean, there was so much so much happened in what is overall like a not a very long period of time. But at the same time it was. But I one thing that I really think was and is an um human amount of work is the labor they are doing of rewilding the land and that's Kevin and the people that help Kevin and the green mambas and the labor because that's not that's not just thinking about it, that's physical labor on this land that like plants are meant to this like survive, and with that thorns are huge and you can get hurt and and roots are deep, and there they are trying to help and trying to rewild the lands. And uh that was to me was incredible, incredible amount of work, and and what feels like an ending work, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

Right? That I completely agree. And I was thinking about that the like the giraffe that we saw that had been hurt badly, right? And we were all, you know, like oh, somebody helped that giraffe, you know. And then Kevin was saying, Well, that giraffe, like that injury was not a man-made injury. And so, you know, they say that like what happens in nature, like they're there to support what should be happening in nature, right? That giraffe doesn't make it because of lions or because of giraffe innate problems, you know, like problems that are natural to giraffes, that's they're just there to, you know, let that happen. But if it's a man-made problem, if that giraffe had been caught in a snare, you know, if it had been injured by people, it's on us to fix it. And and it occurred to me I just want as you were speaking, that like all those invasive species that they're working to rewild, like, yeah, that's on us. We brought it, we brought it, we brought it as people. That's on us to fix it. That is a huge, like you said, it's an unending task. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:22

It's a huge undertaking. And what's interesting too, you know, having spent more time talking to the green mambas than we got to do when we were in the field with them, is what a life-changing, despite how hard that work is, it's also incredibly life-changing because mo they're all single mothers, which I didn't realize at the time. And for many of them, this job is what's made the difference in being able to send their kids to school, being able to have their own home where they can provide for their kids and it's given them possibility. And the ladies I was talking to were like, you know, we didn't spend a lot of time in the wild. We didn't know that these things were here because it wasn't part of how they grew up. And so they're now passionate about the land and about sharing that with other people, even with the things that have been scary, like, you know, encounters with leopards and snakes and things like that. But they're getting the training to be able to handle that. And I thought, what a cool, I guess, human solution to multiple problems, that it's it's not just the rewilding, but systemically it's also working to be able to change lives and change the community in a way that's beneficial to everybody.

SPEAKER_02 42:38

It's a fine balance, too. It is. Because we can try to help, just like it happened with uh with uh giraffe, right? We can try to come in and help, but we need to know how to help. It it's such a delicate balance. Sometimes we can see that improve where we can have organizations on ONGs or and on non-for-profits come in and then do so-called help, but they are not quite they are changing things by helping. So man, that's that's it it really is.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

It's sort of a short finger's cat kind of thing, isn't it? You know, like you can't, you know, like can you can you help because can you help without yeah, exactly how and that's that's actually one of the things I think Wild Tomorrow is doing right or working working to do right is that communal approach, bringing people from the community in and not just saying like, here's how we think you should be helped, but like saying, what is it that you need? You know, like and then you know, it's never gonna be perfect, but trying to find a way. I remember asking, oh, what was the name of the vet who worked with the rhinos? They yeah, I know who you mean. I want to say Bob. His name was not Bob. Dr. Mike, Dr. Mike, Dr. Mike. Just asking him, like. The older older gentleman, right? Yes. Yes. Saying, like, is it kind of a hassle for you having us here? Like, you're just trying to do your job and we're all, you know, watching you do your job. I'm sure you could do it without an audience. It might even be nicer for you. You know, like. And he said, Well, there's no doubt about it. I could get stuff done faster if, you know, like if I weren't narrating this entire procedure for people. He said, but then you go home and you tell people about it. And then people donate and we're able to do more work than we were before. So it's part of the job. You know, it's part of the the system, like, and how like we sometimes have to compromise in order to do the most good or to get to an end where, yeah, it might just be easier, but if nobody knew they were there, right? Like we're we're sharing the word about them right now. Like, and maybe somebody go, hey, well, tomorrow, like I'm going to Brino de Horning. What's that? You know, and like as people learn about it, we don't know what we don't know.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

And so we're said mentioning that the Reiner de Horning is not cruel and it's a good thing. Right. Absolutely. It sounds like a terrible thing.

SPEAKER_03 45:17

It's it's it's like a pedicure, a little more extreme than that, but it's necessary until we can figure out how to stop poaching altogether.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

Oh my goodness. I was watching, so it's interesting. Like every rhino that we saw, right, had been through that process to keep them safe. It's like you say, it's like a pedicure. And even more so than than I thought before because the horn is not, I mean, no, it's made of hair. Like it's like your haircut. It's like it's so it is, like it's like a haircut or something. But but then I came home and was talking with my dad about it, and he pulled up an old, old documentary. Uh, the Disney Corporation used, well, Disney used to make like true life adventures, right? Like in the 50s and 60s. And it was like the very first like full-length feature nature shows, right? Where you would like, where photographers would be out there and capturing and they would like edit everything together to make this story. And one of them was all about lions, but it wasn't really about lions, because the lions don't do a whole lot, right? Like it was about all the animals that like that that are hunted by lions or live in the savannah. And every rhino that they showed had a horn that was like as tall as us, you know, like so. This is before sort of poaching became endemic there. And and this is sort of like in the way that we need to treat things holistically, you know, in the way that like you can't just save the planet, you also have to bring the people along. And you have to like all of that. In talking with Kevin at Wild Tomorrow, he was saying that poaching really became a problem like since the 80s. And it was in the 80s that South Africa's currency crashed. So it's not like people just want to hunt these rhinos, they're trying to feed their families, you know, like so. It's not like it's just cruel people out there. People are trying to find any way to survive that they can, you know. So it was interesting to see that even in a period that was just predating the 80s by 20 years, you know, to see all these rhinos that were just out and about doing their thing, you know, and nobody had to intercede. But that was because people were able to make a living in other ways before. So, like these to bring it back home, to like reincarate, like these are all problems that require creative solutions, like creative thinking. And not just linear, like let's just solve this problem. Like, you have to incorporate a lot of things, whether they're tricycles and bikes, pieces of chalk and flying shoes, or whether it's balancing like economy and ecology and education. Like the world has very serious problems and requires creative thinking to solve those problems. And art is a great way to start.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

I love that. And what a great way to connect it back to your book and to the work that you all do, because that is a huge part of the process. We spend so much time drilling down on facts and sort of the noise of doom scrolling and everything else that we forget that problem solving is a creative, messy collaborative problem, or it's a collaborative process. And I think that your book sort of helps give give us an in in terms of helping kids to see a different way to do things and to encourage.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

I would hope so. Ultimately, what we want to encourage is play. You know, there's I think we have to be careful about squashing the fun out. Like, I'm going to teach you to have fun or I'm going to teach you to collaborate. Like that, that is just like you can't turn a kid's mind off to you fast enough. It's a by saying, like, I'm not going to be able to do it. It's the byproduct. Exactly. Like, I want you to learn something. I just watched this really charming bluey episode the other day where she says to her dad, wait, are you trying to teach us stuff? She's, I'm not learning anything. She says I was like, that's so funny. Like, like, I don't know if this happened with with either of your kids, but in in school, like when I was a kid and we went to music class, you know, like we would like, yeah, let's just like beat on a tambourine and we're gonna like shake some maracas and we're gonna like, you know, learn, we're gonna sing row, row your boat and around, right? That was fun. When my kids were in music class in grade school, they were learning music theory. And like, look, I'm all for learning music theory. And when I, you know, learned to play an instrument, and as I got older, yeah, you need to know that stuff, right? So that you can get better. But the idea is that you want to know it then, like that you have an interest in the music and you want to like learn more about how to do it. And it's your own curiosity that leads you to learn. But my kids just were like, ugh, I don't like music class. And I'm thinking, you don't like music class? Like, then we're doing something wrong. You know, like that's and and I feel like it's it's not like you want to trick them into learning, but like the learning, like you say, should be a byproduct, the fun and the creative play. Or the reading.

SPEAKER_03 50:43

So, last question for you beautiful ladies today, and it's one you've both addressed before, but I'm gonna make you answer it again because it's an important one. I like to end the podcast by thinking about hope. So I'm wondering what's currently bringing you hope. I can start go for it.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

My daughter. My daughter is, she's 13 now, but seeing everything that she does and and and oh she's uncomplicated, not yet. Like sometimes she has these moments where she gets complicated, but overall she's uncomplicated, and that's joyful. As adults, we get too complicated. But yeah, I love how she sees the world and everything that she's experiencing for the first time. Yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

Yeah, I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 51:37

And I love her.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

For me, the last time I was on, I'm trying to I want to give you a different answer, but like still like sort of wind up in the same place. It may seem counterintuitive, but seeing how unhappy so many people are with the way things are right now gives me hope because all positive change begins with a negative thought. I don't like this. This needs to be better, we need to fix this, you know, like that person is unhappy and I want to help. Or, you know, that person is in need, you know, like it can seem like we don't think, you know, like I don't want negativity, but like you're right, and just wallowing in negativity is no way to create change, but noticing what needs to be done and seeing that things need to change for the better, that's okay. Let it spur you forward. So I think the fact that so many people are unhappy is going to lead to really great positive change.

SPEAKER_03 52:47

I love that. I thank both of you for joining me on the Adventures in Learning podcast. I cannot wait for everybody to go buy off the wall. Um, you can pre-order it, you can get it from your local indie bookstore, but you're gonna want this book in your collection. And I'm gonna challenge you to go out and play today. Find some way to play and be creative. Thank you for joining me. Thank you, Anna. Thank you, Diane. You've been listening to the Adventures in Learning podcast with your host, Dr. Diane. If you like what you're hearing, please subscribe, download, and let us know what you think, and please tell a friend. If you want the full show notes and the pictures, please go to drdianeadventures.com. We look forward to you joining us on our next adventure.